To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

They belong back in their original setting.

Thing is that they wouldn't be in the original setting they would be in the new museum.

They should all be sent back

Including stuff taken from Egyptian pyramids.

And anything else we nabbed from the "empire".

They never belonged to the Ottomans. They belonged to the Greeks. The Turks were colonisers.

Thing is that they wouldn't be in the original setting they would be in the new museum

The Parthenon is a stones throw from that museum and highly visible throughout and incorporated into the experience. It's an incredibly well put together exhibit.

No, they were purchased not "looted"

Whatever anyone thinks about how they came here ,the fact remains they were purchased fair and square .sold to the British government for a fair price.lord elgin did not make a profit on them! Leave them here many people will be able to see them . Obviously if things are stolen it's a different matter .if you bought something someone was selling paid fair and square and were happy with your purchase, and someone said they wanted it back now you have cleaned it up and displayed it they wouldn't be able to .same goes for the marbles .

Of course they should be returned. They have been asked for and should be on their cultural home. Suggesting that Greece can't look after them 'properly' is an absolute affront. As for a loan, the BM are in no position to offer to loan something that is not theirs. They offered to loan preserved tattooed heads to Te Papa, the national museum of NZ. The NZ government refused. These are the remains of peoples ancestors and should be returned to their place, not 'loaned' as some sort of curiosity.

They certainly aren't in their original setting now. And the marbles didn't belong to the the Ottoman Empire.
Same as buying a stolen PS5. It wasn't theirs to sell

I'll probably get slated for this but I think the 'they won't look after them' argument is a pile of shite. So what? You don't get to dictate what others do with their own property. If the Greeks want them back to grind up and turn into kitchen countertops that's their choice. Extremely sad but still theirs to make

I find much "woke" stuff laboured and self serving. This isn't "woke". It's returning stolen property. This stuff was bought from someone who stole it from the original owners. Much like art stolen by the Nazis. It should be with its original owners.

If the Greeks want them back to grind up and turn into kitchen countertops that's their choice. Extremely sad but still theirs to make

And they don't want anything like that.

Theyve built an amazing, custom made facility for them, to display them on the original site and with all the other artifacts, including additional marbles, open to visitors from around the world.

The narrative that it was ALL looting by colonial oppressors is simply not true.

In the majority of cases, how do you think the rich people had the money to buy it in the first place? 😂

They made money by stealing land and labour. Wether it was in the highlands of scotland or the plantations in america it was all pretty much dirty money.

I don't really care about how many museums here would be emptied, give it all back to the people it belongs to. Then we should start giving the land (OUR LAND) back to the people it belongs to as well.

If things are to be returned to their original places then some of Venice''s buildings would fall down as lots of the pillars were taken from other countries (Egypt, Greece etc).

Totally right.

Who the fuck do we think we are.

The romans dismantled much of the coliseum to reuse the materials. Do folks think we should have "saved" it, cos you know, they'd only ruin it.

Many ancient structures were unprotected for centuries, but times have changed.

Give them back, they don't belong to us.

Bringbackcoffeecreams. Just as well they were rescued by lord elgin! The thought of these treasures being ground down to make mortar is outright sacrilege! Ffs we have been several times to the British museum, they are wonderfully displayed and truly breathtaking. They were purchased fairly and we are the new owners .stolen artifacts are a different story altogether

If things are to be returned to their original places then some of Venice''s buildings would fall down as lots of the pillars were taken from other countries (Egypt, Greece etc).

Thats not an argument for not returning the marbles though. Nothing is going to fall down in this instance.

Ffs we have been several times to the British museum, they are wonderfully displayed and truly breathtaking

Ive been to the museum at the Parthenon and the BM. The difference in the experience in the artefacts displayed right beside the Parthenon ruins versus in a dusty room in London is staggering. There is no comparison.

So if they were sold and chap bought them - as a result they still exist and now the country which sold them rather than destroy them wants them back

• does that mean we can demand anything back we sell?

My old house ? I could rent that out and get sone cash if I could demand it back ?

Maybe the BM are wary after the King Tut epoxy beard repair controversy?
Other countries did colonialism and stealing better than we did, yet we only ever hear about how evil WE are.
I think they should stay put, but I believe history should have proper origins detailed.

does that mean we can demand anything back we sell?

If they were sold by someone who's ownership is disputed then yes, probably.

I'm not sure people understand that a significant proportion of the marbles are already in the Parthenon museum. The BM has the rest of the collection. And the Greeks have more than demonstrated ability and commitment to looking after them and displaying them to their best advantage. They have far more ability to do that than the BM in fact.

Did the seller have the right to sell them tho?

People should be taught colonisation in schools and it's effect globally. This country likes to sweep that part of the history under the carpet - result is that most of the public do not know their own immediate history, how they got their riches, art etc.,

Shame on the British government and hope it changes in the future - sadly it won't !

Some of the breath taking arrogance and ignorance sprouted here are a result of this.

Unless this country is open, accepts its role in slavery, colonisation, how it obtained its wealth there won't be progress in the society. Much to learn from Germany and what it has done post WW2.

Good grief

the entitlement of the British knows no bounds