To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

"My old house ? I could rent that out and get sone cash if I could demand it back ?"
Presume you didn't take over that house by force before claiming ownership of it.

The Benin bronzes are being returned. Which I agree with.

but it’s a difficult one. If we have back everything the British museum the Louvre and Berlin museum would be empty.

for me the difference between the Elgin marbles and say the Benin bronzes it that the bronzes were a complete set of historical in time figures from a set period.

the Elgin marbles while impressive are a small part of a larger structure of which there are also many others of similar type and period.

it’s controversial but I don’t think there is an easy answer. But if the Elgin marbles were returned it would allow the Patheon to be more complete but would it drawn more people to it, would they just end up being another feature on an otherwise larger building, probably.

Important not to mythologise the British side of this.

I will say these are 'claims' but plenty of evidence to make them more than plausible, or uncontested:

• marbles were damaged by Elgin in their extraction and to make them more easily transportable
• they have been broken by unruly visitors
• we have damaged them with appalling historic cleaning practices
• the BM Duveen gallery leaks
• there is no context whatever for their display (a modicum can be achieved by laying on the floor and viewing them from below - and, yes, I have !)

There is really no argument on which the BM is entirely on solid ground.

Except homes it seems firm recent press reports whereby your home can be sold by someone else and you don't get it back

They're fed this great British clap trap day in and day out, and sadly many swallow it whole.

No they aren't. There's too much hyperbole in debates like this and way too much projection of present values onto the past, ie, by arguing that the marbles were stolen when the best argument is that under the law prevailing in Greece at the time they were legally purchased. If so - and even if they weren't - why does the British Museum bear responsibility rather than Turkey which is the natural successor state of the Ottoman Empire?

It gets even sillier if you recall that there had been no Greek state since 1453, or arguably antiquity.

Perhaps the Greeks should buy the marbles at a fair price to be paid for by the Turks.

And sorry but I have never heard about how we colonised Greece Or took their citizens into slavery ?

So are you saying that the Bristish should have stolen more discreetly?!

Remember, Sun never set in a British Empire - so they had a LOT of land to loot. They were masters in looting. They plundered and pillaged as they captured various lands. Google Robert Clive and see how much he stole - pure greed and complete disregard to the people of Indian subcontinent.

They don't want to grind them down though, that was one poster's hypothetical scenario. They were not bought from the actual owners, the Greeks, they were bought from invaders of Greece who did not have the right to sell them. I don't see what's fair and square about that and you must have really dodgy morals to think it is. Buying from thieves is still considered illegal, don't you know that?! They have NOT been rescued, they have been misappropriated from their actual owners.

All artefacts should be returned to where they were stolen from.

And sorry but I have never heard about how we colonised Greece Or took their citizens into slavery

No one said we did. Doesn't mean we've any rights to the marbles. This wearing of ignorance like a badge of honour is getting old btw.

"but it’s a difficult one. If we have back everything the British museum the Louvre and Berlin museum would be empty. "

Which is a bad thing because.....?

Unless we are absolutely satisfied that we didn't steal it or buy it from someone who stole it, it should be returned. Let other countries get the tourism revenue. There are plenty of artefacts from the UK that we could display. Or artefacts that we have lawfully obtained.

Elgin had permission from the Sultan of the Ottoman empire

This is the huge sticking point here.

"Experts" acting for the Greek government claiming that the documents are faked/ issued afterwards/ part of war crime or a result of occupation and therefore not valid ...

"Experts" acting for the British Museum state the opposite.

The only way this is resolved is by one side stepping down, but that's not going to happen any time soon!

From a moral perspective, yes they should be returned and equally not.
Against: the repercussions this will have for museums all over the world.
Pro: the importance of viewing artefacts within their cultural context.

But if you want to see how powerful Western institutions (museums) are have a look into the case from Peru about returning artefacts looted from Machu Pichu... it takes some digging but makes for interesting reading!

Well the western museums will be devoid of their exhibits ( loots ), They can fill them with their own art culture and artefacts. What prevents them from doing that ? Things belonging to their original countries displayed in their own country of origin is far more important and the right thing to do compared to worrying about the western museums !!

You can borrow artefacts from other countries / vice versa to fill the museums - leads to more understanding between nations rather than how the western countries are viewed at present.

someone said that we should consider how we colonised and enslaved others as a reason for giving back the marbles
That the fact that people were reluctant

was because they didn't understand the colonial history

Which seemed a bit off

I totally agree with you. I'm of clear Anglo-Saxon descent, so the Normans can sod off and give England back. Oh, but then the Anglo-Saxons stole it from the Celts, so they get it. Except that they stole it from the Beaker people... who stole it from the previous inhabitants. How far back do you want to go? Seems to me that everything ends up belonging to a primordial amoeba.

They need to go back. they were 'bought' but the seller was not the owner, and had no right to do so. If my neighbour sells you my car that does not make you the legal owner.

The museum that has been built for them in Athens is wonderful. the whole collection gives the marbles a context and a story.

The BM has vaults stuffed full of treasures that never see the light of day - returning the marbles would free up a huge space to put some of these unseen treasures out for us to admire.

How far back do we go when returning land to colonisers as suggested above? Serious question.

As for the marbles, they should go back where they belong, on the building they originated from. Acknowledge that they were paid for, "rescued" or whatever but I can't see how they belong in a room in another country when the country they came from is now in a position to maintain them and they are a piece of their history. As for museums being emptied of artefacts, seems like some kind of system for loans could be set up surely? All countries and people could benefit from that.

I think that's the rub - was the seller understood by all to be the owner at the time of sale

If our government sold land to a foreigner was it their land to sell or the nations ?

I totally agree with you. I'm of clear Anglo-Saxon descent, so the Normans can sod off and give England back. Oh, but then the Anglo-Saxons stole it from the Celts, so they get it. Except that they stole it from the Beaker people... who stole it from the previous inhabitants. How far back do you want to go? Seems to me that everything ends up belonging to a primordial amoeba.

Cross post

Why does Britain even want them. Just send them back.

I think that this is part of the issue. They won’t be. If they were going to be reinstated at the Parthenon itself there would be less of an issue, but they can never be because of the risk of damage from air pollution. Instead, they will be displayed out of context in a museum, just as they are at BM. Furthermore, that museum charges an entrance fee, while the BM is free and open to all. I absolutely feel for the Greeks, whom I absolutely love as a people - I’m there at the moment! - but as various pps have stated, it would set a precedent. The acquisition of the Elgin marbles, while murky, certainly weren’t forcibly looted. Many of the other marble statuary and architecture at the Parthenon was removed and smashed to make lime. So sad.

I can't see any legitimate reason for Britain to return them. Throughout history stronger groups have always exploited weaker ones.

If we are to apply modern standards to everything, do we know for certain that the Elgin marbles were ethically produced? There was a hell of a lot of slavery going on in ancient Greece, marble tended to be mined and transported by slave labour, even if the craftsmen who made the final product happened to be free. Has the modern Greek government proved beyond doubt that there was nothing illegal or unethical (to modern eyes) going on back then? If not, the marbles are the proceeds of what would be a crime now, and the beneficiaries of the crime (the descendents of the Greeks) must not profit from them, financially in terms of tourism or culturally.

Has Britain been compensated for all the tin, silver and other minerals that were looted from us under the Roman occupation? Have the French paid reparations for the Norman invasion? Have the descendents of the Vikings repaid all the damage done by their invasions?

History is what happened. By any reasonable definition the Elgin marbles belong to Britain, at least insofar as anything that was created or owned by someone in the past can have ownership transferred to someone else.

There is literally nobody alive today who was involved in the creation of the Elgin marbles, so the Greeks have no legitimate claim to them. As far as I'm aware, they haven't even compensated us for protecting them over the years - had they been left in Athens they would likely have been looted or destroyed during the various wars, or left to decay as happened to many Greek treasures.

Instead, they will be displayed out of context in a museum, just as they are at BM.

No.

The museum is right beside the Parthenon and it's in view throughout the experience. The other marbles and artefacts from the ancient Parthenon are there also. It's absolutely nothing like the BM. It's an infinitely richer experience

Everyone saying if we returned everything our Museums would be empty

A - Museums only display a tiny proportion of their holdings at any point, transfer the marbles the British museum has millions of other things it could exhibit, or make casts of them, which 99% of people wouldn't know the difference
B - most things don't have the awkward provenance of the Elgin marbles, even if it prompted further returns of "stollen" items they'd still have millions of items acquired lawfully
C - even if this was taken to the max and countries only allowed to own their own historical items we did return everything that wasnt strictly "british" we would still have thousands of years of history in our own country to display, plus could arrange loans with other countries.