To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

That’s one angle. Glad you’re playing along now…

@Saz12 ”Our taking of the kohinoor & ruling of the Punjab were hugely unethical. It shouldn’t have happened.”

Though the two are connected in strategy; that’s why it seems to have happened, even if it was unethical.

The kohinoor was a symbol of the punjab’s strength (from what I’ve read, it was a fabulously formidable kingdom; that’s why Britain wanted the Punjab and its riches). Holding the Punjab down and taking their kohinoor symbol became part of that power struggles for dominance over what had been a formidable kingdom. There was a real fear of an uprising because the punjabis had a reputation for being good fighters.

Fraser Harrison writes about how the pressure to subjugate and humiliate Duleep Singh (who was a child!) came from how successful his father was in creating a powerful modern empire in the kingdom.

Hugely unethical, but highly strategic. Where’s the balance?

Where is your proof? - Majority were all stolen or taken during Colonial times. Do you come from such a country where you know for sure they were rescued? If they were rescued and taken without permission they should be given back to there owners.
Let's see if you can allow anyone into your garden to rescue something that you are supposedly not looking after . . . then keep it safe for them and only return it if YOU can be sure they will look after it. What a load of ...
Why do you think the UK has the authority to decide whether someone else's property will be safe if returned?

I see both sides.

Either way, upper hand is with the one who has the artefacts. However they were acquired.

Possession is nine tenths of the law.

Legal phrase meaning that ownership is easier to maintain if a person has possession of something and difficult to enforce if a person does not.

But it’s not the whole law.

Possession doesn’t mean lawful ownership, as in the case of the kohinoor.

Maybe the kohinoor was good to show off in Victorian times and the British Empire as a show of power in subjugating and humiliating an Indian Royal (from when he was a child separated from his mum through to his death - buried in England according to Christian rites but refused a bible quote on his gravestone, so arguably an improper burial too).

But times have moved on. Kohinoor is a clearer problem now than before because the possessor is also supposed to be the UK’s representative for the Law. Leading by example… a diamond on the crown with dubious legality and clear immortality. See the problem there now?

More the reason why stolen / taken artefacts should be returned to their owners / countries of origin. We are alone now after Brexit and ardently exactly loved by the world after invading every country but 22 in the world.
In future we would be better off making friends rather than enemies.

I see that. A diplomatic strategy for the future.

“We are alone now after Brexit and ardently exactly loved by the world after invading every country but 22 in the world. In future we would be better off making friends rather than enemies.”

I’m not sure everyone understands that vulnerability of being alone after Brexit- it seemed pp like @apintortwo didn’t or couldn’t grasp the bigger picture.

But I can see how if the empire felt they owned all but 22 countries in the world, it would also have been a harder mental leap to imagine how that could all be lost. And the Britain would one day be on its own.

If you want to see someone’s character give them power… see how they treat people then.

Sorry to resurrect this thread but what are peoples thoughts on this? Do we think they might also "loan" the Elgin Marbles?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68066877

The Ottoman Empire was in charge at the time so yes let’s give them back. To Turkey.

A loan has apparently been offered before. The Greeks have refused it, insisting that they will only accept permanent return of thr sculptures.