Page 7 | Pretty shocked....what comes next? Interim care order...

SplashparkSummer · 2022-08-31T17:00:28+00:00

I have posted about this before. I change a few details as a very sensitive issue. My toddler great nephew has been taken into care today on an interim care order. It has all been pretty upsetting. I was shocked that up until this morning it was understood he would stay with the foster carer that he lives with now as part of a mum and baby placement. This has turned out not to be the case and SS have been scrambling to find a placement for him and have only found one for 1 week. Everyone (except SS) including the judge wanted the case to be adjourned for a week to allow a longer term placement to be found and introductions to be done slowly but the current mum and baby foster carer initially would allow it only if mum could stay too but then changed her mind to not allow it with or without mum there. How upsetting for him to be removed from his mum and his home on the same day and then have another move in a week. Just needed to get that all out. What happens next? There is over a year until the final hearing and my nephew wants his DS to come and live with him. Any advice much appreciated.

Proteinpudding · 31/08/2022 23:02

Also those posters talking about placement with parents at home - not sure of the reasons but there is a big North South divide; courts in London rarely make them, courts in the North do. It's uncommon for it to be the plan of the LA, it's more usual for it to be the court overruling (eg if the LA recommendation is removal) There are some specific circs where an LA might seek to have a care order at home eg a child being rehabbed to parents and moving home on an ICO due to concerns, but in general they're not something LAs tend to want to do.

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:03

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:35

I think you need to focus on your own emotions about possibly losing this child out of the family because that may happen

Proceedings are unbelievably complicated. People use the wrong terminology all the time too, she may well have been in a care leaving supported lodgings type placement but referred to it as a foster placement. Which would mean her child was not in care.

Ive heard solicitors and other professionals refer to adult placements like that, calling their support hosts as 'foster carer' or lots of times referring to their care leaving worker as a 'social worker'

Ultimately unless you are a party you wont have access to all the information and what you hear from your great nephew and his solicitor is half wishful thinking, half bravado and chutzpa with a bit of legislation and technicality thrown in.

He might get a placement and if so he needs to work really really hard.

No it wasn't supported accommodation. She lived in a house with a family. This family were expected to keep DGN if the ICO was granted.

I have told him that and he is willing to work really hard. He has done so many things since the possibility of his DS being removed from his mum, to prepare him to have his DS full time if possible.

I have to say his barrister (I meant that rather than solicitor) was really nice. She didn't seem full of bravado. Was just talking about what the judge had said and confirmation of arrangements etc.

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:04

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:36

You can be classed as 'looked after' (LAC)....at home...with the LA as the corporate parent ...and the parent doing the actual caring

I didn't know that, thank you.

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:09

dogoncouch · 31/08/2022 22:44

Sorry - I've not read the whole thread but just wanted to pick up a couple of points.

My adopted daughter had her second child removed under a section 20 (I was already parenting her elder child and was not able to consider number 2 as well). DGC2 was in foster care for about 5 months. Child's guardian fought hard to have my DD and DGC go into a mother and child assessment unit. At the end of 3 months, she failed the assessment and was put into a mother/child foster placement for a further 4 months. When it went back to court (sorry, can't remember the terminology and it was a few years ago now), the judge decided in DDs favour on the recommendation of the guardian, rejecting the parenting assessment and deciding DDs parenting was 'good enough'.

On balance, I think it was probably the right decision. DDs parenting is just about good enough. There is still ongoing DV with DGCs father. There is still police involvement. DGC comes on and off Child in Need plans but DGC and her mum have a close bond. I live down the road and am a teacher and not afraid to talk to CS if need be and I also take DGC to stay with me if things are too bad at home. DGC is very feisty (like her mum) but appears resilient and is generally a happy child. I do worry about her and her brother who i still parent, things are not ideal for either of them but they could be much much worse.

I guess I'm saying that failing a parenting assessment is not always the end of the line and being parented by your not great parents is not always worse than long term foster care or adoption, particularly if other family members step up to bring some stability to the children.

That's interesting to hear, thank you. There is no violence or police involvement here.

I'm glad you are there to support your DGC. It does sound a hard situation. But removing a DC from their parent can be really hard too.

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bellac11 · 31/08/2022 23:10

Proteinpudding · 31/08/2022 23:02

Also those posters talking about placement with parents at home - not sure of the reasons but there is a big North South divide; courts in London rarely make them, courts in the North do. It's uncommon for it to be the plan of the LA, it's more usual for it to be the court overruling (eg if the LA recommendation is removal) There are some specific circs where an LA might seek to have a care order at home eg a child being rehabbed to parents and moving home on an ICO due to concerns, but in general they're not something LAs tend to want to do.

A court cant direct a LA where to place a child subject to ICO/CO, if an ICO is made then the child wont stay at home, although could stay with parents in a P+C if parties agree and the court indicate thats what it wants. If that can happen under s20 then the court prefers this due to no order.

Do you mean that courts often dont want to agree to separation? That is common and usually means the child remains at home either under CP/PLO or with ISO as well in some cases.

I would say that its more and more common that separation is not agreed to, hence the huge need for P+C placements, for single and couple parents.

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:11

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:47

If you present as an alternative carer you will have a viability assessment. You would be able to discuss the practicalities with them

You have to be able to show that you can meet the child's needs both now and until they are 18, so obviously cant share a room for long with him, but housing is something that shouldnt be a sticking point, housing can be changed, you can move for example

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Unfortunately, I can't afford to move. Would he be allowed to share with one of my DC?

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:15

decayingmatter · 31/08/2022 22:53

In order for the child to have been the subject of a supervision order, a previous set of court proceedings would already had to have taken place. As the child's mum is an adult I cannot see any court proceedings having come to an end with the mum and child still living with a parent and child foster carer, a loose end as big as that wouldn't have just been disregarded at a final hearing.

I don't know if you or your nephew has got mixed up with the terminology and the child was looked after with mum in the parent and child placement with plo and S20 in place, and it then escalated to an application for an ICO.

Even if a supervision order was in place already, the same threshold is required for one of these orders as an ICO which means that there have already been significant historical concerns for his welfare.

Also, the lac review is 28 days from a change of placement regardless of whether he has already got lac status or not.

This wasn't the final hearing. But yes, I may have got mixed up and DGN was already a looked after child. Thank you for the information.

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bellac11 · 31/08/2022 23:17

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:11

Unfortunately, I can't afford to move. Would he be allowed to share with one of my DC?

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You really need to ask to be assessed and go through this with the SW assessing you. Dont forget that with SGO is there is an allowance, its means tested to some degree and not guaranteed over 18 years but they will do a financial assessment to determine the support. You would of course be entitled to child related benefits for him too. This may enable you to move if necessary

However you need to be honest as I suspect in your mind you're thinking that you'll be handing the child back to his father or mother once the eyes are off you and thats not fair on the child.

My last post as I need to go to bed but yes it can be supported accommodation if she was living with a family, but as you wont know (because you shouldnt know, its not a reflection on you) the full facts of the case we'll be going round in circles as to whether child was in care or not in care, whether proceedings had already started or just finished in a previous set, whether child was subject to PLO earlier or not and all manner of questions

OldFan · 31/08/2022 23:18

@SplashparkSummer If you want to be assessed as a potential carer then go for it. My friend's son is currently with her brother (and her mum happens to live with him.) My friend wishes she could have her son back, but SS are not going to do that.

Could you move so that you have an extra room?

As a PP has implied, things are time sensitive. If your DGN gets a foster carer long term or who is likely to adopt, they'll tend to want him to stay there rather than be moved again.

I don't suggest moving in with your DN if you hope to be considered as a potential guardian or carer for DGN, because it might lessen your chances if you're sharing a home with DN, as they've decided he's dodgy.

Proteinpudding · 31/08/2022 23:19

@bellac11 I understand the technicality that the court cant determine where a child is placed on an ICO but I've been involved in a number of cases across the northwest where LA plan at IRH is foster care, judge makes it clear that at the final hearing they intend that the child will be returning home and the LA are required to submit a care plan for placement with parents. Within that are parameters for when & how the LA could move the child to an alternative placement.
I don't want to derail the thread and I'm not going to pretend to understand the courts logic, but does happen a lot in some areas

OldFan · 31/08/2022 23:20

Would he be allowed to share with one of my DC?

@SplashparkSummer Yes, I'dve thought so, depending on their age and sex.

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:26

Proteinpudding · 31/08/2022 22:56

If the LA went to court to get an ICO granted this week, then it's unlikely that the child was 'Looked After' ie in care before - it sounds like mum was in a foster placement that continued into a 'staying put' (post 18) arrangement and that the baby was born into that arrangement. The LA wouldn't have applied for an ICO when baby was born if there weren't concerns about mums care at that point, even though it is a bit of an unusual arrangement, and I can see why posters are picking it up as a possible contradiction - however its not likely to have that much impact on what the OP is asking.

Op in terms of the process, this is a useful resource
frg.org.uk/get-help-and-advice/what/care-proceedings/interim-arrangements-and-plans-for-children-during-care-proceedings/

One thing I haven't seen mentioned - you've said that the child can't come and live with you as you don't have room. Appreciate this is not a simple decision, but if you would want to care for them if it came to it and this was the only reason you couldnt, do make this clear to the social worker. The other thing to consider, and appreciate I don't know the circs, but would there be an option of you moving in with DN (temporarily) to help him care for the child if that were needed, ie either until child could be back with mum or if it were felt DN needed that support but had a realistic chance of being able to do it himself in time?

Re the case not being adjourned, honestly I expect the reason why SS wouldn't have wanted to wait a week is because there is such a shortage of foster placements that a week adjournment is no guarantee that they would have a new placement lined up with a transition plan. It is common to have to negotiate extensions with carers at the end of the agreed period because nothing suitable has come up in that time. It is really sad that the current carers wouldn't keep the child, though it sounds like they were only in a 'monitoring' role to them before and weren't prepared to commit to caring for a toddler.

Other posters have mentioned that various plans will be mooted but some are less likely than others. If your DN is aware what the child's guardian thinks that is important, they represent the interests of the child and their recommended plan carries a lot of weight in court.

No, this wasn't the case. This is a different placement to when he was born.

Thank you for the link. I'll have a look.

I assumed I wouldn't be able to have him due to space. But maybe I should put myself forward. No, I couldn't move into DN's as I'm a single mum.

Yes, it seems they were only in a 'monitoring' role which seems to contradict the idea that they were providing lots of support - prompting and guiding and supervising etc. The judge wasn't happy that the FC wouldn't keep him another week when she had committed to him staying with her. Her reasons were really flimsy too.

Thank you for the advice.

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CPL593H · 31/08/2022 23:29

NoFrills01 · 31/08/2022 20:13

I work in a care home, the government has now dropped all asymptomatic testing for residents and staff. All staff have dropped masks.

Whilst many of my colleagues are happy, I am not. I have many many health issues, with a child who is also very vulnerable and has been very ill over the last year.

I'm constantly being asked why I'm still wearing a mask, constantly made to feel like I need to rip it off my face, and I'm being dramatic.

Facts of the matter are I had covid in March 2020 I'm pretty sure I have long covid, since then I've been very ill from other virus which have caused very random but life altering changes to my body ( I've lost vison, hearing ect ect).

I caught covid again earlier this year, and unfortunately suffered an early miscarriage. Whilst my Dr says there isn't enough to know if it was covid I can't help but feel my body just reacts to these viruses ever since.

I enjoy my job, but I feel like I'm being pushed out by wearing a mask. Some could argue covid is here for a while and we learn to live with it, I agree totally but what about those of us who immune systems are absolutely wrecked. I'm only young and have just lost my hearing to a virus! Wearing a mask makes me feel better, like I'm doing something to protect myself and my child.

I need to work, but I have no idea what to do. I almost want to leave but I would be faced with the same issue somewhere else. I'm not happy in my job which doesn't help but I do it to pay the bills.

@NoFrills01 think you might have posted on wrong thread, if you report to MNHQ they can move it for you

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:50

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:59

I wasnt aware I was being flippant

On the issue of her locking herself in her room, what did you expect the host/carer can do about that, she cant man handle her out of there, she can encourage and talk to her about coming out and getting on with her day but she cant force her

Where you in the placement with her and if not why do you say that the support wasnt there?

And when you say that SW looking at the wrong thing and havent prioritised her MH, how do Social Services prioritise a persons MH, we are not health, we are not the NHS. We liaise with those services to gain information and chase referrals and write letters but dont control when mum would be able to access those services

I asked you why the placement broke down, when and how did mum leave, you said all of a sudden the carer said she didnt want the placement to continue, so she gave notice, what happened to prompt that?

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It was flippant to suggest we thought the foster carer would say 'there, there' to her. She's unwell. It's not funny.

Regarding her locking in her room she should have spoken up and said she was unable to provide the support due to mum not engaging.

I wasn't living in the placement, obviously. But I visited often and spoke to DGN's mum most days. I was surprised to learn this was the highest support available as mum was left to her own devices.

You said yourself they would look at what knowledge was missing. That's not the issue. Getting help from health is difficult, especially for someone who is unwell. More support should have been provided to access health. Of course you can't control when she'll get an appointment but you can definitely help her access the CMHT.

So what happened was today the case went to court. Mum and dad were told if an ICO was granted their DS could stay with the current foster placement, but mum would have to leave. Based on this both mum and dad agreed to the ICO. Then an hour before the court case, dad was told the foster carer has now said his DS could not stay at the placement. He could stay for one night alone or a week with mum, but that was it. During the hearing they found out that there was only a new foster placement available for 1 week. 2 options were suggested - either the case be ajourned for 1 week or he go to the 1 week placement. Everyone preferred the first option, but the foster carer then said she couldn't have them for another week. Therefore the only option was the 1 week placement. DGN was moved and his mum lost her home too.

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 23:59

Luredbyapomegranate · 31/08/2022 23:00

I’m sorry Op, it’s a rough business to be dealing with. I do remember your previous post, and I do think it’s worth considering whether it is your great nephew’s best interests for you to fight for him to be placed with your nephew.

He’s already had a troubled start. I don’t recall you mentioning on your previous post your nephew’s mental health history, or that he had failed an assessment already. I do remember you mentioning the domestic violence issue, and that you believed he would need support to parent his son.

I think it’s quite likely your great nephew will be bounced between his parents and foster carers until he is of an age when it is difficult to find him a stable home.

I think it’s worth considering whether a better outcome for him would be to start to process of adoption now. I know that’s probably a painful thing to contemplate, but his interests should be come first. I think you mentioned that one or both of his parents were care leavers. It is a cycle that is difficult to break.

I recall both his parents are early 20s too, and also wonder if they will have a better chance themselves if they can focus on building up themselves for a few more years.

I'll be honest, I'm not fighting for DGN to be placed with DN. I'm supporting him to be prepared if SS decide that DGN should be placed with him and I'll support him if it happens. I did say he failed the parenting assessment in the previous one, but not his MH. But he had affective depression because his mum died. He thankfully, doesn't have a serious mental illness (not that that automatically means you can't be a good parent).He has had medication and therapy and has coping strategies. He's done really well with it and is stable.

I assume that adoption is being looked at due to his age. And yes, it is painful to contemplate. But luckily, I'm not making the decision.

DGN's mum definitely needs time to focus on herself. DN has already done all that work. But of course that's just my opinion which doesn't count for anything.

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 01/09/2022 00:07

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 23:17

You really need to ask to be assessed and go through this with the SW assessing you. Dont forget that with SGO is there is an allowance, its means tested to some degree and not guaranteed over 18 years but they will do a financial assessment to determine the support. You would of course be entitled to child related benefits for him too. This may enable you to move if necessary

However you need to be honest as I suspect in your mind you're thinking that you'll be handing the child back to his father or mother once the eyes are off you and thats not fair on the child.

My last post as I need to go to bed but yes it can be supported accommodation if she was living with a family, but as you wont know (because you shouldnt know, its not a reflection on you) the full facts of the case we'll be going round in circles as to whether child was in care or not in care, whether proceedings had already started or just finished in a previous set, whether child was subject to PLO earlier or not and all manner of questions

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Thank you for the information. If I was to put myself forward (and I would have to think very carefully about it) and was approved, I would take it really seriously. I would certainly not expect to 'hand the child back' when 'the eyes are off me'! What on earth?

Supported accommodation would not be expected to continue to care for the DC.

I appreciate you taking the time to advise me. Goodnight.

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 01/09/2022 00:09

OldFan · 31/08/2022 23:18

@SplashparkSummer If you want to be assessed as a potential carer then go for it. My friend's son is currently with her brother (and her mum happens to live with him.) My friend wishes she could have her son back, but SS are not going to do that.

Could you move so that you have an extra room?

As a PP has implied, things are time sensitive. If your DGN gets a foster carer long term or who is likely to adopt, they'll tend to want him to stay there rather than be moved again.

I don't suggest moving in with your DN if you hope to be considered as a potential guardian or carer for DGN, because it might lessen your chances if you're sharing a home with DN, as they've decided he's dodgy.

No, I'm not moving in with him! I have my own home and DC.

I can't afford to move, unfortunately. But I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the advice.

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 01/09/2022 00:10

OldFan · 31/08/2022 23:20

Would he be allowed to share with one of my DC?

@SplashparkSummer Yes, I'dve thought so, depending on their age and sex.

Ok, thank you.

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IdiotCreatures · 01/09/2022 00:15

Good luck @SplashparkSummer mental health support in this country is woefully underfunded and even if it were funded properly would need a good overhaul.
I wish the best for your DGN. Whatever that outcome maybe.

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 01/09/2022 00:17

IdiotCreatures · 01/09/2022 00:15

Good luck @SplashparkSummer mental health support in this country is woefully underfunded and even if it were funded properly would need a good overhaul.
I wish the best for your DGN. Whatever that outcome maybe.

Thank you so much. That is very kind.

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Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 03/09/2022 14:30

It looks like mum and dad are both going to have 2 sessions a week with DGN. At the contact centre at the moment, but the new SW is going to look at dad being able to have him at his flat again. DN has also found a toddler class he would like to take him to and SW was encouraging apparently, but DN needs to wait for her permission to take him to. He's also found a healthy lifestyle course to go to as well as the other parenting course. Mum has got a GP appointment for next week that I'm going to go to with her to hopefully move towards getting her mental health sorted.

I'm not reading too much into it at this stage as previous posters have advised. Just hoping DGN is ok with the foster carers (he was very unsettled when they saw him but obviously to be expected) and that they can find a longer term foster home for him.

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Whowhatwherewhenwhynow · 03/09/2022 16:01

I really hope that things process well for your DGN, whatever that looks like. Sounds like you will be a good support to the parents too regardless of what the final outcome is. Well done you for supporting your family so well.

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 04/09/2022 00:37

Whowhatwherewhenwhynow · 03/09/2022 16:01

I really hope that things process well for your DGN, whatever that looks like. Sounds like you will be a good support to the parents too regardless of what the final outcome is. Well done you for supporting your family so well.

That's a lovely thing to say, thank you.

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OldFan · 04/09/2022 00:46

That all sounds really promising @SplashparkSummer xx

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 04/09/2022 01:04

OldFan · 04/09/2022 00:46

That all sounds really promising @SplashparkSummer xx

Thank you - I hope so!

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