Page 6 | Pretty shocked....what comes next? Interim care order...

SplashparkSummer · 2022-08-31T17:00:28+00:00

I have posted about this before. I change a few details as a very sensitive issue. My toddler great nephew has been taken into care today on an interim care order. It has all been pretty upsetting. I was shocked that up until this morning it was understood he would stay with the foster carer that he lives with now as part of a mum and baby placement. This has turned out not to be the case and SS have been scrambling to find a placement for him and have only found one for 1 week. Everyone (except SS) including the judge wanted the case to be adjourned for a week to allow a longer term placement to be found and introductions to be done slowly but the current mum and baby foster carer initially would allow it only if mum could stay too but then changed her mind to not allow it with or without mum there. How upsetting for him to be removed from his mum and his home on the same day and then have another move in a week. Just needed to get that all out. What happens next? There is over a year until the final hearing and my nephew wants his DS to come and live with him. Any advice much appreciated.

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:12

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:06

I already set that out, a child in care under s20 might be also subject to an ISO or SO, its unusual, but you cant tell without knowing the care status of the child.

For example, lets say a child is not safe in their parents care, the LA apply for care proceedings and an ICO but the judge does not grant this so child stays in mothers care under an ISO, while proceedings continue.

That can go in a number of directions, further down the line, more concerns might mean that the child is less and less safe but threshold for separation is not met (or judge and Guardian dont want separation). So mum agrees for s20 accommodation of the child but within a P+C placement. So now mum and child move into a foster placement for the CHILD, but the purpose of a P+C is that the child is cared for by the parent.

Or, using the same example, parent and child live at home, subject to proceedings and subject to ISO. Mum does well and parenting assessment is positive, proceedings come to the end and recommendation is that child stays in parents care and ISO is discharged and SO is made. Lets say its a 6month SO.

One day, there are significant concerns raised, perhaps child is police protected, perhaps SW visits and finds mum unsafe around the child. LA apply back to court as they can under the SO and agreement by parties is that mum gives S20 consent for a P+C and mum and child move into that so child is in care.

There are other combinations of circumstances leading to a child being both subject to an ISO or SO and also being a child in care without an ICO, but those are the ones that come to mind

A SO or ISO does not in itself indicate whether a child is in care or not.

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I see, thank you! It is very complicated. The situation was that mum cared solely for the DC herself. The foster carer just made notes on what she saw. I found it hard to understand how this is the highest level of support for mum available. I just hope she gets support for her MH soon and that she can go back to being the great mum she was.

OP posts:

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:16

Just a note that DGN's mum is supportive of DN looking after their DC. She knows she can't look after him right now so wants him to be with his dad. I feel so sorry for her.

OP posts:

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:18

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:12

I see, thank you! It is very complicated. The situation was that mum cared solely for the DC herself. The foster carer just made notes on what she saw. I found it hard to understand how this is the highest level of support for mum available. I just hope she gets support for her MH soon and that she can go back to being the great mum she was.

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So the child was already in care then

And yes, P+C placements are highly supportive, she will have been guided, prompted, advised, monitored, supervised all the way through with regards to how to care for her child. Thats what support means, it doesnt mean the foster carer should be caring for the child or baby sitting or anything like that, it also doesnt mean patting her on the back and saying 'there there'.

Any placement planning has to be to prioritise the child's safety and child's care planning, so the focus is on 'what can mum do, what cant she do, how do we fill the gaps in her knowledge'

With MH is harder because 'support' has many meanings within this, ultimately if she needs medication, nothing will change until she has that, so whatever support given wont change that substantially. Why is her GP not prescribing for her?

Why did this break down also or did she up and leave (thats quite common)

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:23

NeverDropYourMooncup · 31/08/2022 22:06

Things like cutting her off, refusing contact, criticising her, having arguments in earshot, the risk of him being violent again, and imbalance of power and concerns about coercive control and further abuse due to a disparity in age, things like that; if the child were in his care, would he really suddenly become really supportive of her having access and ultimately residence again? When he won't even answer the phone to her?

Although once somebody reaches 18 they aren't regarded as being looked after and are ineligible for a foster placement, which suggests she's 16-17 as you specifically say she's the one who is in care, not her child until now. Staying in an already settled foster placement is different to what you describe.

Maybe they are looking to reunite mother and child quickly, maybe they're actually thinking that neither parent is looking as though they are equipped psychologically to fulfil the child's physical and emotional needs and adoption is a possibility, but fundamentally, they have a legal duty to the child and the mother, with the child foremost.

There's probably lots that you haven't been told and a number of inaccuracies. It's all very sad to have two young people in such a situation and the damage both have suffered for them to be in care, but when comes down to it, they have to make hard decisions to try and minimise the damage done to the child to break the cycle.

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He would never cut her off or refuse contact. He's her biggest cheerleader, tbh. He's never been violent to her and I don't believe he ever would. I appreciate that could be a concern but it doesn't seem a main one. The incidence of DV with his teenage girlfriend was a long time ago. Yes, he already is really supportive of her having contact and residency again if that's how it works out. The only reason he had to block her number was because she was being aggressive and argumentative and this was happening in front of their DS. They still communicate about co-parenting issues but it goes through me.

OP posts:

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:29

NeverDropYourMooncup · 31/08/2022 22:06

Things like cutting her off, refusing contact, criticising her, having arguments in earshot, the risk of him being violent again, and imbalance of power and concerns about coercive control and further abuse due to a disparity in age, things like that; if the child were in his care, would he really suddenly become really supportive of her having access and ultimately residence again? When he won't even answer the phone to her?

Although once somebody reaches 18 they aren't regarded as being looked after and are ineligible for a foster placement, which suggests she's 16-17 as you specifically say she's the one who is in care, not her child until now. Staying in an already settled foster placement is different to what you describe.

Maybe they are looking to reunite mother and child quickly, maybe they're actually thinking that neither parent is looking as though they are equipped psychologically to fulfil the child's physical and emotional needs and adoption is a possibility, but fundamentally, they have a legal duty to the child and the mother, with the child foremost.

There's probably lots that you haven't been told and a number of inaccuracies. It's all very sad to have two young people in such a situation and the damage both have suffered for them to be in care, but when comes down to it, they have to make hard decisions to try and minimise the damage done to the child to break the cycle.

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She is an adult. It was a mother and baby foster placement and the DC was under a supervision order. I may have been wrong and that counts as him being in care. I thought because she did all the looking after him that he wasn't. But another poster explained I may have that wrong. They have been there a while so DGN is settled in that placement.

And yes, I agree. Whatever happens I hope it is the best decision for DGN. I love him dearly.

OP posts:

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:35

A parent and child placement is often around 12 weeks and allows for an intense parenting assessment.....however , parallel planning will also be taking place, with a view to adoption if the parenting assessment and psychological assessments are negative and no family members come forward, or are viable

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:35

I think you need to focus on your own emotions about possibly losing this child out of the family because that may happen

Proceedings are unbelievably complicated. People use the wrong terminology all the time too, she may well have been in a care leaving supported lodgings type placement but referred to it as a foster placement. Which would mean her child was not in care.

Ive heard solicitors and other professionals refer to adult placements like that, calling their support hosts as 'foster carer' or lots of times referring to their care leaving worker as a 'social worker'

Ultimately unless you are a party you wont have access to all the information and what you hear from your great nephew and his solicitor is half wishful thinking, half bravado and chutzpa with a bit of legislation and technicality thrown in.

He might get a placement and if so he needs to work really really hard.

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:36

You can be classed as 'looked after' (LAC)....at home...with the LA as the corporate parent ...and the parent doing the actual caring

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:40

PitifulPrincess · 31/08/2022 22:11

I think your desperation to keep the child within the family is clouding your judgement. Do you really think it's in the best interest of the child to be with either of these people? Neither sound suitable to be primary care giver when they can't even look after themselves and your DN has proven himself to be dishonest by not disclosing the previous DV to you even when you're fighting his corner.

You've previously mentioned you dont have the capacity to take the child in yourself, I think you getting so heavily involved may be confusing things further.

Maybe. DGN's mum has been doing so well. If she got the help for her MH then I believe she could go back to being a great mum.

I don't think DN was dishonest. People were telling me he couldn't possibly be using a contact centre unless something was going on. As it turned out that was incorrect. He was honest to SS about it (prior to use of contact centre) and when I asked him about DV he was honest to me that there'd been an incident when he was a teenager. He is so much more grown up and mature now, of course. When I've seen him with his DS, he seems to know what he's doing. Of course being the non-resident parent is very different to bring resident.

OP posts:

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:41

If someone knows - would DGN have to have his own room if I cared for him?

OP posts:

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:43

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:36

You can be classed as 'looked after' (LAC)....at home...with the LA as the corporate parent ...and the parent doing the actual caring

That is very unusual and means the parent has to be subject to Placement with Parents regs, it has to be signed off as being a fit placement. If the Local Authority need to have an ICO for reasons of needing to share PR, it usually implies that the child is not safe at home so wouldnt be signing that off. In those circumstances the LA dont want an ICO and would ask for ISO. A court cannot direct a LA where to place a child subject to ICO so only the LA would decide to place a child at home under ICO

In this case, an ICO is now being applied for so the child wouldnt be in care at home!

We do have these arrangements, usually for children who have been returned home but we're waiting for a court hearing to discharge the ICO, so its temporary or when older children remove themselves from care and go home to parents and those arrangements are good enough at that point

dogoncouch · 31/08/2022 22:44

Sorry - I've not read the whole thread but just wanted to pick up a couple of points.

My adopted daughter had her second child removed under a section 20 (I was already parenting her elder child and was not able to consider number 2 as well). DGC2 was in foster care for about 5 months. Child's guardian fought hard to have my DD and DGC go into a mother and child assessment unit. At the end of 3 months, she failed the assessment and was put into a mother/child foster placement for a further 4 months. When it went back to court (sorry, can't remember the terminology and it was a few years ago now), the judge decided in DDs favour on the recommendation of the guardian, rejecting the parenting assessment and deciding DDs parenting was 'good enough'.

On balance, I think it was probably the right decision. DDs parenting is just about good enough. There is still ongoing DV with DGCs father. There is still police involvement. DGC comes on and off Child in Need plans but DGC and her mum have a close bond. I live down the road and am a teacher and not afraid to talk to CS if need be and I also take DGC to stay with me if things are too bad at home. DGC is very feisty (like her mum) but appears resilient and is generally a happy child. I do worry about her and her brother who i still parent, things are not ideal for either of them but they could be much much worse.

I guess I'm saying that failing a parenting assessment is not always the end of the line and being parented by your not great parents is not always worse than long term foster care or adoption, particularly if other family members step up to bring some stability to the children.

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:47

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:43

That is very unusual and means the parent has to be subject to Placement with Parents regs, it has to be signed off as being a fit placement. If the Local Authority need to have an ICO for reasons of needing to share PR, it usually implies that the child is not safe at home so wouldnt be signing that off. In those circumstances the LA dont want an ICO and would ask for ISO. A court cannot direct a LA where to place a child subject to ICO so only the LA would decide to place a child at home under ICO

In this case, an ICO is now being applied for so the child wouldnt be in care at home!

We do have these arrangements, usually for children who have been returned home but we're waiting for a court hearing to discharge the ICO, so its temporary or when older children remove themselves from care and go home to parents and those arrangements are good enough at that point

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Its not unusual in the LA I live and work in

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:47

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:41

If someone knows - would DGN have to have his own room if I cared for him?

If you present as an alternative carer you will have a viability assessment. You would be able to discuss the practicalities with them

You have to be able to show that you can meet the child's needs both now and until they are 18, so obviously cant share a room for long with him, but housing is something that shouldnt be a sticking point, housing can be changed, you can move for example

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:48

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:47

Its not unusual in the LA I live and work in

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So as a matter of course you go through all the effort of securing an ICO for a child who is going to remain at home?

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:52

dogoncouch · 31/08/2022 22:44

Sorry - I've not read the whole thread but just wanted to pick up a couple of points.

My adopted daughter had her second child removed under a section 20 (I was already parenting her elder child and was not able to consider number 2 as well). DGC2 was in foster care for about 5 months. Child's guardian fought hard to have my DD and DGC go into a mother and child assessment unit. At the end of 3 months, she failed the assessment and was put into a mother/child foster placement for a further 4 months. When it went back to court (sorry, can't remember the terminology and it was a few years ago now), the judge decided in DDs favour on the recommendation of the guardian, rejecting the parenting assessment and deciding DDs parenting was 'good enough'.

On balance, I think it was probably the right decision. DDs parenting is just about good enough. There is still ongoing DV with DGCs father. There is still police involvement. DGC comes on and off Child in Need plans but DGC and her mum have a close bond. I live down the road and am a teacher and not afraid to talk to CS if need be and I also take DGC to stay with me if things are too bad at home. DGC is very feisty (like her mum) but appears resilient and is generally a happy child. I do worry about her and her brother who i still parent, things are not ideal for either of them but they could be much much worse.

I guess I'm saying that failing a parenting assessment is not always the end of the line and being parented by your not great parents is not always worse than long term foster care or adoption, particularly if other family members step up to bring some stability to the children.

Thats often the view of SS I've found...parenting doesn't have to be good ...just good enough....and children often spend their entire childhoods moving in and out of cp and cin plans

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:53

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:18

So the child was already in care then

And yes, P+C placements are highly supportive, she will have been guided, prompted, advised, monitored, supervised all the way through with regards to how to care for her child. Thats what support means, it doesnt mean the foster carer should be caring for the child or baby sitting or anything like that, it also doesnt mean patting her on the back and saying 'there there'.

Any placement planning has to be to prioritise the child's safety and child's care planning, so the focus is on 'what can mum do, what cant she do, how do we fill the gaps in her knowledge'

With MH is harder because 'support' has many meanings within this, ultimately if she needs medication, nothing will change until she has that, so whatever support given wont change that substantially. Why is her GP not prescribing for her?

Why did this break down also or did she up and leave (thats quite common)

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I don't know, but yes, possibly!

This is my point. She hasn't been 'guided, prompted, advised, monitored and supervised all the way through'. It seems something went wrong. Apparently mum would lock her and her DS away all day in their room. And the FC at the last minute decides she doesn't want DGN to stay. Maybe she found it too much to cope with but I wish she had spoken up sooner. Please don't be flippant. This is a serious situation, not one to make light of.

The trouble with 'how do we fill the gaps in her knowledge' is that wasn't really the problem. The problem is her mental health. And maybe that's why it hasn't been prioritised as the SW are looking at the wrong thing. She has medication which she takes, from her GP. She needs assessment from the CMHT as she may need more specific medication. But medication won't be enough alone. She needs therapy. And probably OT or support work too.

Do you mean why did the mother and baby foster placement breakdown?

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decayingmatter · 31/08/2022 22:53

In order for the child to have been the subject of a supervision order, a previous set of court proceedings would already had to have taken place. As the child's mum is an adult I cannot see any court proceedings having come to an end with the mum and child still living with a parent and child foster carer, a loose end as big as that wouldn't have just been disregarded at a final hearing.

I don't know if you or your nephew has got mixed up with the terminology and the child was looked after with mum in the parent and child placement with plo and S20 in place, and it then escalated to an application for an ICO.

Even if a supervision order was in place already, the same threshold is required for one of these orders as an ICO which means that there have already been significant historical concerns for his welfare.

Also, the lac review is 28 days from a change of placement regardless of whether he has already got lac status or not.

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:54

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:48

So as a matter of course you go through all the effort of securing an ICO for a child who is going to remain at home?

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Yup....I found it odd when I first started working for that trust as in the lady LA I worked in it wasn't a thing....I'm health though not SS ....I've known one child be looked after at home 8 years now

HappilyHadesBound · 31/08/2022 22:56

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:41

If someone knows - would DGN have to have his own room if I cared for him?

It depends on his age and your area. It tends to be up to 12-18 months that they can share with the foster carer.

Proteinpudding · 31/08/2022 22:56

If the LA went to court to get an ICO granted this week, then it's unlikely that the child was 'Looked After' ie in care before - it sounds like mum was in a foster placement that continued into a 'staying put' (post 18) arrangement and that the baby was born into that arrangement. The LA wouldn't have applied for an ICO when baby was born if there weren't concerns about mums care at that point, even though it is a bit of an unusual arrangement, and I can see why posters are picking it up as a possible contradiction - however its not likely to have that much impact on what the OP is asking.

Op in terms of the process, this is a useful resource
frg.org.uk/get-help-and-advice/what/care-proceedings/interim-arrangements-and-plans-for-children-during-care-proceedings/

One thing I haven't seen mentioned - you've said that the child can't come and live with you as you don't have room. Appreciate this is not a simple decision, but if you would want to care for them if it came to it and this was the only reason you couldnt, do make this clear to the social worker. The other thing to consider, and appreciate I don't know the circs, but would there be an option of you moving in with DN (temporarily) to help him care for the child if that were needed, ie either until child could be back with mum or if it were felt DN needed that support but had a realistic chance of being able to do it himself in time?

Re the case not being adjourned, honestly I expect the reason why SS wouldn't have wanted to wait a week is because there is such a shortage of foster placements that a week adjournment is no guarantee that they would have a new placement lined up with a transition plan. It is common to have to negotiate extensions with carers at the end of the agreed period because nothing suitable has come up in that time. It is really sad that the current carers wouldn't keep the child, though it sounds like they were only in a 'monitoring' role to them before and weren't prepared to commit to caring for a toddler.

Other posters have mentioned that various plans will be mooted but some are less likely than others. If your DN is aware what the child's guardian thinks that is important, they represent the interests of the child and their recommended plan carries a lot of weight in court.

Original poster

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:57

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:35

A parent and child placement is often around 12 weeks and allows for an intense parenting assessment.....however , parallel planning will also be taking place, with a view to adoption if the parenting assessment and psychological assessments are negative and no family members come forward, or are viable

She was actually there much longer. Thank you for the information.

OP posts:

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:59

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 22:53

I don't know, but yes, possibly!

This is my point. She hasn't been 'guided, prompted, advised, monitored and supervised all the way through'. It seems something went wrong. Apparently mum would lock her and her DS away all day in their room. And the FC at the last minute decides she doesn't want DGN to stay. Maybe she found it too much to cope with but I wish she had spoken up sooner. Please don't be flippant. This is a serious situation, not one to make light of.

The trouble with 'how do we fill the gaps in her knowledge' is that wasn't really the problem. The problem is her mental health. And maybe that's why it hasn't been prioritised as the SW are looking at the wrong thing. She has medication which she takes, from her GP. She needs assessment from the CMHT as she may need more specific medication. But medication won't be enough alone. She needs therapy. And probably OT or support work too.

Do you mean why did the mother and baby foster placement breakdown?

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I wasnt aware I was being flippant

On the issue of her locking herself in her room, what did you expect the host/carer can do about that, she cant man handle her out of there, she can encourage and talk to her about coming out and getting on with her day but she cant force her

Where you in the placement with her and if not why do you say that the support wasnt there?

And when you say that SW looking at the wrong thing and havent prioritised her MH, how do Social Services prioritise a persons MH, we are not health, we are not the NHS. We liaise with those services to gain information and chase referrals and write letters but dont control when mum would be able to access those services

I asked you why the placement broke down, when and how did mum leave, you said all of a sudden the carer said she didnt want the placement to continue, so she gave notice, what happened to prompt that?

Luredbyapomegranate · 31/08/2022 23:00

I’m sorry Op, it’s a rough business to be dealing with. I do remember your previous post, and I do think it’s worth considering whether it is your great nephew’s best interests for you to fight for him to be placed with your nephew.

He’s already had a troubled start. I don’t recall you mentioning on your previous post your nephew’s mental health history, or that he had failed an assessment already. I do remember you mentioning the domestic violence issue, and that you believed he would need support to parent his son.

I think it’s quite likely your great nephew will be bounced between his parents and foster carers until he is of an age when it is difficult to find him a stable home.

I think it’s worth considering whether a better outcome for him would be to start to process of adoption now. I know that’s probably a painful thing to contemplate, but his interests should be come first. I think you mentioned that one or both of his parents were care leavers. It is a cycle that is difficult to break.

I recall both his parents are early 20s too, and also wonder if they will have a better chance themselves if they can focus on building up themselves for a few more years.

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 23:02

kitcat15 · 31/08/2022 22:54

Yup....I found it odd when I first started working for that trust as in the lady LA I worked in it wasn't a thing....I'm health though not SS ....I've known one child be looked after at home 8 years now

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So you dont work in the proceedings team as a qualified Social Worker

There are all sorts of technicalities and legal status which unless you are working the case as the worker it may not be clear

You dont say how old the child is but no LA goes to court to gain an ICO only to then immediately have the child at home

Children are often much later after proceedings returned home. By then the LA has a CO and if they decide the child should now be back at home, then they will apply to the courts to discharge the CO. They may or may not also then apply for a SO