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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Pretty shocked....what comes next? Interim care order...

196 replies

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 18:00

I have posted about this before. I change a few details as a very sensitive issue.

My toddler great nephew has been taken into care today on an interim care order. It has all been pretty upsetting. I was shocked that up until this morning it was understood he would stay with the foster carer that he lives with now as part of a mum and baby placement. This has turned out not to be the case and SS have been scrambling to find a placement for him and have only found one for 1 week. Everyone (except SS) including the judge wanted the case to be adjourned for a week to allow a longer term placement to be found and introductions to be done slowly but the current mum and baby foster carer initially would allow it only if mum could stay too but then changed her mind to not allow it with or without mum there. How upsetting for him to be removed from his mum and his home on the same day and then have another move in a week. Just needed to get that all out.

What happens next? There is over a year until the final hearing and my nephew wants his DS to come and live with him. Any advice much appreciated.

OP posts:
SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 20:38

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 20:12

This scenario is being played out all the time though, there isnt anything particularly extraordinary about it, its not unusual, there could be a number of foster carers, social workers, mums, dads reading this thinking 'is that about my case'?

I've been careful to change information and keep as much as I can anonymous.

OP posts:
SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 20:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You are. Because this is entertainment for you.

OP posts:
bellac11 · 31/08/2022 20:44

watcherintherye · 31/08/2022 20:35

Don’t you think it’s sensible to draw it to the op’s attention so she can have it removed, if necessary? Rather than relying on people being unobservant?

Message her then or report the post, dont keep requoting the post, it had already been raised in the thread that some people thought she had mentioned a name

viques · 31/08/2022 20:46

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 20:07

I am only working on the information given. But I honestly don't feel one assessment at DN's home and one at contact is enough to make this decision and his solicitor agrees. SS are also still looking for a parent and child placement.

It depends what they observed during the assessment doesn’t it. In many cases two observations would be sufficient to make a decision that a parents relationship with their child was deficient. Have you ever attended the contacts and watched the dynamics of the relationship?

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 20:48

TheHateIsNotGood · 31/08/2022 20:37

I've known a few people who have 'taken on' gc and grand nephews either before or after SS involvement - despite all the flaws and rocky roads, usually it's best for the child rather than going into the foster care/SS system; after all given that there are hardly any suitable foster carers available - and the child can get moved by SS for no apparent reason, launching a child into that is far more flawed.

These relatives don't usually get foster carers' pay either - they do it because 'it's family' and I'd do it too if such a circumstance arose.

The biggest problem I've come across is some family carers' can be unwilling to 'hand back' the child if the child's parent(s) become fully capable of caring for their child again.

Are you talking about people taking out SGOs for their family members?

They shouldnt be 'handing back' the child , the point of an SGO is that it provides permanency for the child until they are 18.

RayneDance · 31/08/2022 20:56

Why oh why are posters obsessed with this ?
So what if she had already had. Thread about this?.

Soontobe60 · 31/08/2022 20:58

PainsandAches · 31/08/2022 20:05

@bellac11

She has included her nephews name in posts!

Of course it's identifying

The name - Dan - is DN that’s been spellchecked by her device! Mines just done the same thing.

bloodyunicorns · 31/08/2022 20:58

I'm sorry the mum hasn't been able to make the most of the parent and child placement. I understand they're hard to access.

It's a very hard situation, but really not surprising that two care leavers are finding parenthood and life tricky. Shame there's not more help available for them.

I wish you the best, op, and hope the court comes to the decision that's best for the child.

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:01

TheHateIsNotGood · 31/08/2022 20:23

Another question - does your DN want the full-responsibilities of caring for and raising his ds as much as you wish he did?

I don't 'wish' he did. I mean if I could have a 'wish' it would be that the mum could continue to care for him as he is so settled with her. DN wants to take on the care of his DS as his mum can't. I understand from posters that the suggestion of him going to a parent and child home may not be genuine. At the end of the day the decision is with SS. If they make the decision that DN's DS is put into his care then I will support him to provide a good home for his DC.

OP posts:
SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:09

viques · 31/08/2022 20:46

It depends what they observed during the assessment doesn’t it. In many cases two observations would be sufficient to make a decision that a parents relationship with their child was deficient. Have you ever attended the contacts and watched the dynamics of the relationship?

I have when he had contact at his flat, but not since it moved to the contact centre. I thought DN was doing really well, but obviously I'm not an expert. He's encouraging, loving, attending to his DS's needs, but as I say, I'm no expert. I am aware of what happened at the assessment with the DC, though. I think their conclusions were flawed, imho.

OP posts:
SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:12

bloodyunicorns · 31/08/2022 20:58

I'm sorry the mum hasn't been able to make the most of the parent and child placement. I understand they're hard to access.

It's a very hard situation, but really not surprising that two care leavers are finding parenthood and life tricky. Shame there's not more help available for them.

I wish you the best, op, and hope the court comes to the decision that's best for the child.

Thank you so much and I hope that too.

I'll be honest, I don't feel mum has been given the support she needs. She's still waiting for mental health input. The foster carer didn't seem to do much caring. It is sad. She was doing so well before.

OP posts:
bellac11 · 31/08/2022 21:20

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:12

Thank you so much and I hope that too.

I'll be honest, I don't feel mum has been given the support she needs. She's still waiting for mental health input. The foster carer didn't seem to do much caring. It is sad. She was doing so well before.

Can you clarify, who was the foster carer the carer for. You said that the child wasnt in care?

If the foster carer was for mum and the child was in her care, not in local authority care then its absolutely right that the foster carer wouldnt have been caring for the child, it wouldnt be allowed.

The trouble when people say there isnt or wasnt enough support, they often dont recognise just how much support parents receive. Its not going to magic her MH issues away. If Im right at the mum was in foster care, then she must be under 18? Which means a referral through camhs which is quite tricky because their waiting lists are long

However if she was over 18 then by definition she cannot be in foster care, she might be a supported lodgings host/provider or she might be the mums former foster carer who has 'converted' to a placement for her as a care leaver

OldFan · 31/08/2022 21:21

It's really unlikely he'll have a father and child placement when he's a grown man over 20.

And the care needs of a toddler are different than those of a young baby.

He might be referred to parenting courses (or probably has already.)

But really it sounds like SS don't think he should have much responsibility for the baby.

I have a friend in a similar situation with her LO, and remember @SplashparkSummer , that everything you're hearing must be taken with a massive grain of salt.

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 21:28

OldFan · 31/08/2022 21:21

It's really unlikely he'll have a father and child placement when he's a grown man over 20.

And the care needs of a toddler are different than those of a young baby.

He might be referred to parenting courses (or probably has already.)

But really it sounds like SS don't think he should have much responsibility for the baby.

I have a friend in a similar situation with her LO, and remember @SplashparkSummer , that everything you're hearing must be taken with a massive grain of salt.

What are your grounds for saying that?

Parents of all ages go into parent and child placements, sometimes its mums and dads on their own, sometimes is both as a couple.

In this case it sounds unlikely but as I said above it could well end up that he is placed because the Guardian wants that or the court is persuaded by father's arguments.

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:31

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 21:20

Can you clarify, who was the foster carer the carer for. You said that the child wasnt in care?

If the foster carer was for mum and the child was in her care, not in local authority care then its absolutely right that the foster carer wouldnt have been caring for the child, it wouldnt be allowed.

The trouble when people say there isnt or wasnt enough support, they often dont recognise just how much support parents receive. Its not going to magic her MH issues away. If Im right at the mum was in foster care, then she must be under 18? Which means a referral through camhs which is quite tricky because their waiting lists are long

However if she was over 18 then by definition she cannot be in foster care, she might be a supported lodgings host/provider or she might be the mums former foster carer who has 'converted' to a placement for her as a care leaver

The supervision order was said to be giving mum loads of support in caring for her DC. I don't feel it did. And her main issues are her mental health so I feel that should be taken seriously. No not camhs. I don't think all your information is correct. It was a mother and baby foster placement. Not a converted placement.

OP posts:
SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:36

OldFan · 31/08/2022 21:21

It's really unlikely he'll have a father and child placement when he's a grown man over 20.

And the care needs of a toddler are different than those of a young baby.

He might be referred to parenting courses (or probably has already.)

But really it sounds like SS don't think he should have much responsibility for the baby.

I have a friend in a similar situation with her LO, and remember @SplashparkSummer , that everything you're hearing must be taken with a massive grain of salt.

It is confusing. I don't know why they are talking about a father and child placement if it's not possible. I know the care needs of a baby are different to a toddler. He has signed up to parenting courses himself. I appreciate what you say. However, I spoke to his solicitor after court today so not all coming from DN or DN's DS's mum.

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 31/08/2022 21:37

It might be that his inability to remain civil to his ex, along with the history of care, bereavement and mental health issues gives them concern that if he were to be a parent with care, this would negatively affect the mother's chances of recovering and rebuilding her coping strategies and relationship with the child.

So he would actually be bad for both the mother and the child.

How old is the mother if she is in care, by the way? A very young Mum already in the care system is a very vulnerable person to have a relationship with a man in his twenties.

MargaretThursday · 31/08/2022 21:40

I have a situation where I meet people using contact centres. I can tell you that a good number have a story about how they were unfairly penalised due to making a teeny weenie mistake a long time ago. They are wonderful parents and everyone thinks they should get the children back shortly... Unfortunately it isn't true.

Also ime the least helpful thing you can do is sympathise about how everyone is being mean and support them getting the child back at all cost. Because they have someone who tells them they're right they think that everyone will believe them eventually and so they don't need to do anything. So they concentrate on how to quickly get their child back rather than trying to deal with the issues that arose in the first place.

So if you want to help your dn the best thing you can do is help him to genuinely assess what is wrong. Guide him in the best things for his child and help him understand how not to make the same mistakes again.

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 21:41

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:31

The supervision order was said to be giving mum loads of support in caring for her DC. I don't feel it did. And her main issues are her mental health so I feel that should be taken seriously. No not camhs. I don't think all your information is correct. It was a mother and baby foster placement. Not a converted placement.

Well you obviously cant say too much in case its too identifiable

But the facts are you said the child was not in care, ie not looked after.

Now you say that it was a mother and baby foster placement, that implies the child was looked after. I think you're saying mum is an adult and over 18 so her MH needs would be met by her GP and/or the adult MH team

But in any case, it will continue to be hard for you OP, you might have to accept you may not see your grand nephew again if this moves to adoption so you might want to think about creating a family memory box about who his family members are, photos, names, letters, trinkets etc.

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:45

NeverDropYourMooncup · 31/08/2022 21:37

It might be that his inability to remain civil to his ex, along with the history of care, bereavement and mental health issues gives them concern that if he were to be a parent with care, this would negatively affect the mother's chances of recovering and rebuilding her coping strategies and relationship with the child.

So he would actually be bad for both the mother and the child.

How old is the mother if she is in care, by the way? A very young Mum already in the care system is a very vulnerable person to have a relationship with a man in his twenties.

It's actually his ex's inability to be civil to him.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why would him caring for his DS negatively affect the mother's chances? (Genuine question)

I'm not going to give out personal information but she is an adult and there is not a big age difference.

OP posts:
SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:51

MargaretThursday · 31/08/2022 21:40

I have a situation where I meet people using contact centres. I can tell you that a good number have a story about how they were unfairly penalised due to making a teeny weenie mistake a long time ago. They are wonderful parents and everyone thinks they should get the children back shortly... Unfortunately it isn't true.

Also ime the least helpful thing you can do is sympathise about how everyone is being mean and support them getting the child back at all cost. Because they have someone who tells them they're right they think that everyone will believe them eventually and so they don't need to do anything. So they concentrate on how to quickly get their child back rather than trying to deal with the issues that arose in the first place.

So if you want to help your dn the best thing you can do is help him to genuinely assess what is wrong. Guide him in the best things for his child and help him understand how not to make the same mistakes again.

This isn't just something I've been told. This is reports by SS and speaking to the solicitor.

I/we don't think 'everyone is being mean'. I don't make the decisions - SS and the judge do. That is not what DN is doing atall. And that is exactly what I'm doing. So at least I know I'm doing one thing right!

I feel so sad. This is DGN's last night with his mum and then he'll be with strangers tomorrow. Then after 1 week more strangers. Will he be ok?

OP posts:
SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:54

bellac11 · 31/08/2022 21:41

Well you obviously cant say too much in case its too identifiable

But the facts are you said the child was not in care, ie not looked after.

Now you say that it was a mother and baby foster placement, that implies the child was looked after. I think you're saying mum is an adult and over 18 so her MH needs would be met by her GP and/or the adult MH team

But in any case, it will continue to be hard for you OP, you might have to accept you may not see your grand nephew again if this moves to adoption so you might want to think about creating a family memory box about who his family members are, photos, names, letters, trinkets etc.

If a child is under a supervision order - are they in care?

Mum is waiting for assessment from the CMHT. Hopefully soon.

I know 😭 A family memory box sounds lovely.

OP posts:
bellac11 · 31/08/2022 22:06

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:54

If a child is under a supervision order - are they in care?

Mum is waiting for assessment from the CMHT. Hopefully soon.

I know 😭 A family memory box sounds lovely.

I already set that out, a child in care under s20 might be also subject to an ISO or SO, its unusual, but you cant tell without knowing the care status of the child.

For example, lets say a child is not safe in their parents care, the LA apply for care proceedings and an ICO but the judge does not grant this so child stays in mothers care under an ISO, while proceedings continue.

That can go in a number of directions, further down the line, more concerns might mean that the child is less and less safe but threshold for separation is not met (or judge and Guardian dont want separation). So mum agrees for s20 accommodation of the child but within a P+C placement. So now mum and child move into a foster placement for the CHILD, but the purpose of a P+C is that the child is cared for by the parent.

Or, using the same example, parent and child live at home, subject to proceedings and subject to ISO. Mum does well and parenting assessment is positive, proceedings come to the end and recommendation is that child stays in parents care and ISO is discharged and SO is made. Lets say its a 6month SO.

One day, there are significant concerns raised, perhaps child is police protected, perhaps SW visits and finds mum unsafe around the child. LA apply back to court as they can under the SO and agreement by parties is that mum gives S20 consent for a P+C and mum and child move into that so child is in care.

There are other combinations of circumstances leading to a child being both subject to an ISO or SO and also being a child in care without an ICO, but those are the ones that come to mind

A SO or ISO does not in itself indicate whether a child is in care or not.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 31/08/2022 22:06

SplashparkSummer · 31/08/2022 21:45

It's actually his ex's inability to be civil to him.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why would him caring for his DS negatively affect the mother's chances? (Genuine question)

I'm not going to give out personal information but she is an adult and there is not a big age difference.

Things like cutting her off, refusing contact, criticising her, having arguments in earshot, the risk of him being violent again, and imbalance of power and concerns about coercive control and further abuse due to a disparity in age, things like that; if the child were in his care, would he really suddenly become really supportive of her having access and ultimately residence again? When he won't even answer the phone to her?

Although once somebody reaches 18 they aren't regarded as being looked after and are ineligible for a foster placement, which suggests she's 16-17 as you specifically say she's the one who is in care, not her child until now. Staying in an already settled foster placement is different to what you describe.

Maybe they are looking to reunite mother and child quickly, maybe they're actually thinking that neither parent is looking as though they are equipped psychologically to fulfil the child's physical and emotional needs and adoption is a possibility, but fundamentally, they have a legal duty to the child and the mother, with the child foremost.

There's probably lots that you haven't been told and a number of inaccuracies. It's all very sad to have two young people in such a situation and the damage both have suffered for them to be in care, but when comes down to it, they have to make hard decisions to try and minimise the damage done to the child to break the cycle.

PitifulPrincess · 31/08/2022 22:11

I think your desperation to keep the child within the family is clouding your judgement. Do you really think it's in the best interest of the child to be with either of these people? Neither sound suitable to be primary care giver when they can't even look after themselves and your DN has proven himself to be dishonest by not disclosing the previous DV to you even when you're fighting his corner.

You've previously mentioned you dont have the capacity to take the child in yourself, I think you getting so heavily involved may be confusing things further.