to worry about transgender ideology being pushed on kids

[HopefulRose]

Noella McHaher is a ten year old model whose parents said she “self identified” as a girl at the age of two. Her parents are also trans.

If my two year old identified as a smoker, I wouldn’t allow them cigarettes. Why is this movement so hellbent on putting children into boxes instead of letting them just grow up without defined labels?

Speaking generally, there is a link between children who “hate” their biological sex and child abuse. Children who have been SA sometimes self harm as a way of trying to prevent further abuse. I’m worried that these signs are being missed.

am I alone on this?

I'm very worried about this when my DC start school. DP and I are trying to research schools that haven't been captured. Does anyone know of any? I suppose needs to be private but so many of those have been too.

This ideology should stop being pushed until basic questions can be answered.

1. If kids know as young as too then why do they need puberty blockers for extra time to decide at 10/11.

1. What can a child do as the opposite gender that they cant do whilst being their birth sex?

1. What have middle aged males ( the predominant cohort of years ago) got in common with todays cohort of predominnatly teenage girls , that means the treatment should be exactly the same.

1. Why arent trans children worthy of the same level of safguarding ( ie not being put into dangerous positions such as a female changing with males) by the adults around them, as other children?

1. Why arent trans children worthy of the same level.of healthv care as other kids. Ie- discussion, report taking, monitoring, constant reviewing, accuracy in recording side effects , proof of effectiveness etc

1. How does a gender identity differ from personality.

1. Why is a trans child's health care outsourced to non consenting strangers. Whys it one child's job to affirm something they dont believe in , in another child.

1. What are these identities and how does anyone know they have one..what are the criteria and how does it differ from child who likes/does/wears the same thing but doesn't have a gender identity.

So, I dont know a lot about trans stuff. But I do know about ‘biological sex’. What defines biological sex? Really think about this as a scientific exercise. What?

Chromosomes? Are we chromosome testing these kids? I don’t think we are, but even if we were there are well documented, decades old cases of chromosomes not correlating with physical presentation of sex. WTAF? Really? Yes really. Because genes are just blueprints. On their own, they don’t do anything. They need to be switched on. And some people’s don’t. We don’t know why.

Man. OK, lets look at internal sex organs. They’re pretty important. Ovaries and whatnot. Except they control sex by producing hormones. And some people don’t produce high enough levels of hormones for their chromosomal sex and their appearance to correlate. Hermaphratidism in people happens. Some people have a mix of sexual organs. Some people are born girls, because they don’t have penis’ and that’s as far as anyone looks and then hormones levels surge at puberty and they display male characteristics.

OK then, hormone levels. But they vary widely between people. They are controlled by things that are not sex-dependent. PCOS is super common (like 10% of women, I think?) I have PCOS and the only hormone that’s out of normal range is my testosterone. It’s high. But I’m definitely still female. It affects things like facial hair and weight and stuff, sure, but I still look female, despite an elevated male hormone and some definitely masculine features. Plenty of other hormones can be affected by all kinds of things. They must be, otherwise we couldn’t alter them with medications. Some times, the levels are normal, but some people are more sensitive than others, so even an objective hormone range isn’t definitive.

Bugger. External sex organs? Y’all know blokes with boobs, right? And anyway, they don’t always correspond with chromosomes, which is the ultimate biological sex, even though it isn’t always accurate. So we’ve come full circle.

So, we need a real mix of characteristics to define sex. It’s much more nebulous scientifically than people seem to think. And while wild discrepancies are well documented in the medical literature, as it’s so complex its hardly surprising there are more mild cases of gender fluidity. Because gender is different from sex anyway. It’s not physical, is a societal construct. It’s how we treat people based on their appearance, which is never a good thing, is it?

I don’t really care how people define themselves. I really don’t care who uses what bog. Just don’t piss on the seat. There are massively bigger issues in society. Should we be ensuring children’s health is protected and teens have good mental health support? Hell yes. Should we be protecting women’s spaces and (especially) sporting events? Yep, for sure. Are there likely to be other issues. Yep. Can we solve is without all this hyperbole and hysteria around ‘knowing what a woman is?’ Of course, if people calm down and stop being so childish about it. Are this issues more important for women than stopping the world being run by and for old, rich white men? Nope. Are they part of it? Yep.

So by all means be sceptical about trans people. But don’t claim it’s a scientifically sound position on gender, because it’s not. And don’t claim that it’s feminist position either. It’s a patriarchal strategy to divide and rule, as always. We are going to end up with a patriarchal Tory government (again) because they have successfully convinced the large majority of women that a tiny sub-set of trans women threaten their rights and identity. When the actual problem is, as it always has been, the patriarchy.

If that 10 year old boy is put on puberty blockers, it may result in a micro-penis and fertility issues. If he realises at 16 that he's just a gay lad his future sex life is damaged. If he decides he wants genital surgery; there may not be enough penis to create a fake vagina (essentially an open wound that needs daily maintenance).

This is the blunt reality away from the pouting and glitter. I suspect things will change once US surgeons and parents start getting sued.

@Eeksteek

Yeah

That's not why we're going to end up with another tory govt.

No not at school thankfully. Out and about. For example once at soft play he can back to me upset and confused as a woman told him he was a girl. He corrected her and told her he was a boy but she she wouldn't have it and told him that he was a girl, because of his long hair.

So, we need a real mix of characteristics to define sex.

Look, this is nonsense. At a chromosomal level we are all one sex or another. There is no 'third' option or fluidity. There are DSDs, but they affect the presentation of sex characteristics, they are not indicative of sex being anything other than binary and immutable.

The kind of scientific illiteracy you are spouting isn't helping this debate. We need clarity in arguments, not obfuscation.

That's not to say that people should be able to present as they choose in terms of gender stereotypes, but quite how that applies to two year olds is anyone's guess.

That's not to say that people should be able to present as they choose in terms of gender stereotypes

Shouldnt - sorry

It is very worrying. Let kids wear whatever clothes they want and do what they enjoy doing and leave it at that. Don’t start complicating it and putting lots of attention to it.

Eduardo is a Tik Tok star who is now a girl and the parents keep posting Tik Tok after Tik Tok about it. How they have 3 daughters etc.

The boy gets lots of attention and is a celebrity purely because he identifies as a girl.

There is another boy Brody who is super camp acting. He’s so young and getting so much attention just from being camp.

I am a girl but when young was very much a tomboy. I had brothers and played with them. I hated my boobs when they came out and envied my brothers flat chests.

My youngest son wore a lot of girls dressing up costumes and tried breastfeeding his dolls. Why? Because he had 2 sisters and played with whatever they played. He enjoyed cooking and crafts but when he saw his dad doing DIY, he would also pretend to do that.

No one questioned or assigned their gender. And I do absolutely believe that there are people who identify as the opposite sex . Whose brains are female or male but their bodies are the opposite sex.

And can you imagine how confusing it is for these kids? So much attention and pressure! I see a lot on tik tok - glamourising lgbt, almost making Hetero seem boring and uncool. I can imagine how a young kid getting really influenced by it. And then once you’ve started and you have your people, it must be hard to change.

And then once you’ve started and you have your people, it must be hard to change.

Quite. Which is very well expressed by this piece, already posted

pitt.substack.com/p/true-believer

And can you imagine how confusing it is for these kids? So much attention and pressure! I see a lot on tik tok - glamourising lgbt, almost making Hetero seem boring and uncool. I can imagine how a young kid getting really influenced by it. And then once you’ve started and you have your people, it must be hard to change

In any other circumstances this would be recognised as < insert banned word here. Horses and brushes > and love bombing.

The willfully blindness here is disturbing

If nothing else, the rigid enforcement of gender stereotypes is so unbelievably regressive, I barely know where to start.

Absolutely 100% agree with this.

I've always said this in identity discussions.

What exactly is identifying as a woman or man?

Is it clothing? Music tastes? Entertainment tastes? Friendship groups?

Is it biology? Do I identify as a woman because I have XX chromosomes? Or because I have breasts? I have no cervix or womb.

Because I wouldn't say I identify as anything - except I identify as me! However I AM a woman because I was born with woman sex chromosomes.

Because stonewall were given grants by govt and then they have managed to infiltrate every public sector org, police, judiciary, etc etc. We were all advised to delete “sex” and use gender instead. Women for years have been abused if they questioned this. Drag events at schools are the norm now. Lesbians being erased. The word woman erased from cervical cancer posters, women’s sport, kids being told there are 100 genders, etc etc. It’s been slowly happening and we all ignored it because we were told to be kind and inclusive.

Being born in the wrong body - how do you even know what the right body feels like?
Strict gender stereotyping has caused this. Pink for girls, blue for boys. Just go into any toy shop and you can see it. Try buying a non pink dress for a baby?

We have all walked into this nightmare together.

Tell the poor Indian girls who sit in period huts that they were born in the wrong body.

I don’t really care how people define themselves. I really don’t care who uses what bog. Just don’t piss on the seat. There are massively bigger issues in society. Should we be ensuring children’s health is protected and teens have good mental health support? Hell yes. Should we be protecting women’s spaces and (especially) sporting events? Yep, for sure. Are there likely to be other issues. Yep. Can we solve is without all this hyperbole and hysteria around ‘knowing what a woman is?’ Of course, if people calm down and stop being so childish about it. Are this issues more important for women than stopping the world being run by and for old, rich white men? Nope.

I disagree with so much of this. I do care what bog someone uses when it means I could be alone in an isolated space with someone who has nefarious intentions. You say that women’s spaces should be protected - well, a loo is one of those.

I don’t agree that there are bigger issues - this is one of the biggest issues facing women and children. It affects safety, health, and even basic identity.

I don’t agree that there is “hyperbole and hysteria”, or that people should “calm down and stop being childish”; that’s just a way of shutting down an opinion you don’t like. It’s up there with “Both sides are as bad as each other”

I don’t agree that “knowing what a woman is” isn’t a big deal. If no-one knows what a woman is, how can same sex attracted women be protected? How do we identify sex discrimination when we can’t identify sex? Why should the identity of “woman” be up for debate when those who would want to include themselves in an extended definition could just choose another definition?

And I do think that this is as big, if not bigger an issue than the idea of “the world being run by rich white men”. I - and many like me - can care about both.

I'm not really trying to argue with you. But you say "born in a woman's body but should have been born in a man's" as though it means something ("quite simply"), when I can't make head nor tail of it.

If I was born in a woman's body, then anyone born in a man's body is someone else and not me. So what I am I to make of "I should have been born in a man's body"?

... This seems to be the same as saying, "I should not have been me." But, really, if this is so, what am I to make of it? "I am me" is something that cannot be false: "I am not me" looks like a mistake (a grammatical mistake, in all likelihood, given the connection between "I" and "me" in grammar), so likewise "I should not have been me" just makes no sense at all.

Do you see?

Isn't it weird how its always the brain

If nature screws up this way why do we never see men with female left arms.or women with a man's ears. Its always the brain.

I'm still working through thoughts on this but I was very dysphoric for a very long time and the thing that changed that was giving birth to a female child.

I am not scientifically illiterate. This is information from my biological sciences degree. It doesn’t invalidate the anti-trans/pro women/whatever argument. I don’t care about trans stuff. I think its a very small issue. But the scientific evidence is NOT that there are two completely discrete and mutually exclusive sexes, where every single person falls into one category or the other. There are proven, HUMAN outliers that fall between categories. It may come to light that trans people are more subtle and complex presentations of this. Or it may not. I don’t care. Be anti or pro trans as you wish. Just don’t claim it’s a scientific position.

Clarity in arguments doesn’t mean you can discount evidence or facts that don’t suit you.

For every complex issue, there is answer that easy, and simple, and wrong.

But the scientific evidence is NOT that there are two completely discrete and mutually exclusive sexes, where every single person falls into one category or the other. There are proven, HUMAN outliers that fall between categories.

They have disorders of sexual development which impacts presentation of sexual characteristics.

They are still, at a chromosomal level one sex or another.

True human hermaphroditism doesn't exist. Neither does some third sex or fluctuating between sex.

Even if it did, it doesn't mean anyone can change sex. That's not scientifically possible.

So let's not obfuscate from the point. Sex in mammals is binary and immutable.

Then surely a brain scan or blood test would show any issue?

Funnily enough there are no medical tests that have been carried out that prove anything. If there were genetic or chromosomal anomalies that explained trans status then these tests would be done. But they arent because what you have is people of one sex claiming to be another sex with only their word required.

In fact one trans person took a brain scan as part of a documentary. It did not prove a thing.

What exactly are you afraid of?

What exactly are you afraid of?

Is that to the OP or everyone ami?

Eeksteek: " ... by all means be sceptical about trans people. But don’t claim it’s a scientifically sound position on gender, because it’s not."

I'm not sure how your post is a comment on mine; I didn't mention any scientific positions.

There may or may not be good scientific grounds for assimilating or differentiating 'gender' and 'sex'. Be that as it may.

I asked for an explanation of what 'born in the wrong body' might mean. Do you want to try?

It does seem that sorting out what on earth it is we're talking about is prerequisite for any sort of discussion about the scientific merits of what we're saying. I think talk of 'born in the wrong body' makes no sense, and that giving it a sense is prerequisite for discussing its scientific status. So, Eeksteek, what on earth are you talking about?

This is a chilling read. I know 4 people whose daughters identify as boys. They have changed their names and wear boys clothes. And one whose son identifies as a girl - both the mother and child are autistic.

My eldest had a female friend at primary who always wore neutral clothes and had short hair. She always hung out with the boys and was interested in boys stuff. She also had mostly male friends. This was before the current trend so that’s all it was. She was allowed to do what she enjoyed and dress how she wanted without any pressure or labels.

Teens go through periods of being goths or dressing up as anime characters or whatever. And they are part of a group. People like being part of groups and want to be accepted. Some carry on for life and many don’t. They grow out of it as other things interests them.

Ive gone from being very pro trans to being horrified by it. As in, I have absolutely no issues with people identifying as they want and want them to have rights and ability to do so, but really worried at the amount of kids whose lives will be irreversibly adversely affected by this. And can imagine that there will be a lot of suicides. Sacrificing your ability to reproduce and to gain sexual pleasure should not be allowed until they are very much an adult. I mean they don’t even give sterilisation to women of childbearing age who’ve had children if they are still young, in case they regret it. Why the f are kids being allowed to have this done to them??