to worry about transgender ideology being pushed on kids

[HopefulRose]

Noella McHaher is a ten year old model whose parents said she “self identified” as a girl at the age of two. Her parents are also trans.

If my two year old identified as a smoker, I wouldn’t allow them cigarettes. Why is this movement so hellbent on putting children into boxes instead of letting them just grow up without defined labels?

Speaking generally, there is a link between children who “hate” their biological sex and child abuse. Children who have been SA sometimes self harm as a way of trying to prevent further abuse. I’m worried that these signs are being missed.

am I alone on this?

this sounds like healthy parenting

You added a completely irrelevant opinion in the guise of 'Look, a squirrel'.

Perhaps stick to the topic on the thread, and start a new one if you want to talk about sewage?

Eeksteek: "Some people feel very masculine despite having a feminine body. Or vice versa. No biggie. (Which is how I interpret ‘being born in the wrong body’ @najene. You can’t really define someone who is the other sex in their own mind if you can’t define sex as a category anyway. I think I may have been responding to someone who quoted your post. Apologies for any confusion)"

Apology accepted. But this is not really any help. What is it to "feel very masculine despite having a feminine body," I wonder? Is it something like "to wrongly think one is a man when one is actually a woman"? Or perhaps, "to enjoy dressing and behaving in a way stereotypically associated with a man in a certain culture when one is a woman"? Or what?

The thing is, which I think you miss despite your claims to be focussed on scientific aspects, that the "born in the wrong body" notion is usually intended to play a causal role: this (senseless, I have argued in an earlier post) idea is offered in (causal) explanation of the supposed (and again senseless, I have suggested) state of being transgender (sc. being the opposite sex to that which one actually is). That your (Humpty-Dumptyesque) interpretation of the notion makes it unlikely to be able to fill such a role keeps it as empty of sense as it ever was.

Do you see?

As for "someone who is the other sex in their own mind". Do you really think this makes sense? Seriously? To be a certain sex in my own mind could at best be metaphorical for thinking I am a certain sex. But, well, everyone older than (roughly) two or three surely knows what sex they are? ... Oh, and so on: I leave this as an exercise for you to unpick for yourself.

... Do notice, though, how much definition is a red herring here. It's clear "someone who is the other sex in their own mind" has no (literal) sense. We can see this without calling up any scientific endeavour, or by looking in any dictionary ... all we need to be able to do is understand English at a fairly elementary level. (Notice that knowledge of definitions of words comes (a long way) after such understanding, both temporally/deveopmentally and (logico-)semantically.)

Of course you can define things however you like. But recall, perhaps, as well as Humpty Dumpty, Bertrand Russell's apophthegm about "the advantages of theft over honest toil." (To save you googling: “Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy, P. 71”.)

You'd do well to read a little around your own sparse knowledge of biological science, Eeksteek, if you really wish to understand where you are going so (badly) wrong on all this. I used to recommend Hull & Ruse's collection The Philosophy of Biology, but also I suspect you need something a tad simpler ... oh, go do some research for yourself.

(A little modesty might not go amiss, also, when posting here on MN: your de haut en bas schtick doesn't sit too well with what your posts tell us of your level of understanding.)

I know, I couldn't get passed the use of the word Hysterical in that post either fucks sake, also using the tactic of taking GC arguments and making them their own describing GC are cult like ffs

That’s how I feel. I’m used to being the one defending people. I’m an activist and have always supported any movement that I think discriminates against people.

And of course I’ve supported adults who are trans.

But I really don’t understand how kids are being allowed to make such life changing decisions before they’re adults. I don’t personally understand the pronoun thing and I also don’t understand the attachment of sex/gender to clothes for example. Clothes are just fashion and throughout history people have worn skirts or dresses or make up of both sexes. Long hair and short hair - both sexes. It’s a social thing and whilst before only men wore trousers, women now do and doesn’t mean anything.

Having raised 2 kids of each sex, I can see how little difference there is between the sexes in terms of interests and personality. What they are influenced by is their peers and the world they are raised in.

I think the reason it’s bothering me is because I don’t feel I can safely discuss this in public due to fear of being branded a ‘terf’ or ‘anti trans’ which I’m not. But I’m afraid that lots of us women are feeling this way and are being silenced and there is no one openly in politics handling this issue logically

I agree a lot of people feel this way.

But we need to be brave and speak the truth anyway. We know that it's is not right to do this to children. We need to advocate for their safety. The bullying and silencing from those who don't want this talked about is abhorrent. Let's keep standing up to it.

YANBU op My three year old son is currently an admirer of the Carly Simon video where she sings Nobody Does it Better on an outside stage. She wears a beautiful simple flared peachy dress. He loves the dress and he comments on my dresses often (although most of the time I wear jeans - I must be very confused with my gender identity). He loves Dashi's hair clips from Octonauts and also Elsa's long hair on Frozen. He has requested to wear hair clips (and gets bored of them as they feel uncomfortable) and likes glittery trainers and pink tops as well as the tops he has in many different colours. He is a perfectly bright three year old but of course, he has no real understanding of the stereotypes and social norms that dictate that girls and boys are 'supposed' to wear different things. If he said he wanted to be a girl, it wouldn't be because he is rejecting his sex as a boy, it would be because he thinks dresses and glittery things look lovely - because sometimes they do!! He is absorbing the messages from society around him rather than articulating his own inner desires.
I just let him wear what he wants and admire what he wants. He knows perfectly well that he is a boy and has a penis. We read 'My Body is Me' by Rachel Rooney so he knows that we should respect our bodies and love them because we only have one, we don't have a spare.

The idea that some parents would take my son and call him a girl and set him on a pathway to surgery and life long medication horrifies me.

As a pp says - when it comes to teenagers we should remember that discomfort with who we are, our identities and our changing bodies is actually an integral part of puberty itself! For god's sake. It is part of a natural and healthy process. Twisting this, confusing teenagers further and potentially harming them and their bodies in the process is such a scandal.

Actually you've reminded me that Rachel Rooney book is a fantastic start

I completely agree with all of this.

Also going back to the OP...

Making it financially advantageous to transition young children is fraught with problems - something they shouldn't be touching with a barge pole.

I agree wholeheartedly.
We know detransition is a thing, but how can this child voice that? All eyes on them, representing, adulation, money being made.

How can a little child say 'this isn't what I want anymore' when they've got a work contract, publicity & their family are invested in their trans-ness?

I'm NOT saying hide them in a closet before anyone starts, I'm saying this kind of exposure & the associated pressure is not healthy.

For my DS the only thing I can get from him is he wants people to think he is a girl.

It is just a feeling. It doesn't have any meaning in reality. But my DS wishes that his body was female. People think/feel/wish all sorts of things that aren't real.

But my DS wishes that his body was female.

Having never been female, I don't know how he would know that.

Do you think he means that he's drawn towards female stereotypical behaviours?

Or that he's uncomfortable in some way in his body (even though he can hardly compare that to being in a female body because he's never been in one)?

I'm really not sure. But he said he wants people to think he is a girl. So I think he'd like the physical characteristics of a teen girl.

He doesn't seem to be drawn to female stereotypical behaviour nor does he dress in stereotypical female clothes.

I commented saying it must be hard for him going through puberty when his body is doing things he doesn't it to do and he agreed with that.

I think it is a teen exploring his identity. He has 2 friends who are also trans and they are all autistic. As an autistic boy he never joined in with the rough and tumble of boys (too loud). He has always played a lot with girls (although quieter boys too) and his best friend is a girl. So I expect that has something to do with it. I can't say it's not a worry.

Isn't the statistic that coming out the other side of puberty resolves this discomfort in like 80%+ of cases? Hopefully that will be the case with your son

Thanks for the reply. I do feel for you; it must be a real worry.

Indeed, people wish for all sorts of things that aren't - often could not be - real. One of the difficulties we have to deal with currently is people telling children that some of these things, not only are real, but even are capable of attainment.

It does seem a peculiarly horrible - immoral - thing to do, to tell children that a wish to change sex is not only a sensible and possibly justified desire, but one that is capable of being fulfilled. Because it isn't, it isn't and it isn't.

We can deal with small children and their childish desires to be so-and-so (one of mine wanted to be a bat, for quite a while). It's a hard and terrible thing, though, imo, to encourage a child to take any such impossible desire seriously, particularly given how things may turn out these days, sterilisation, surgery, drugs and so on.

I do hope you and your DS find a safe way through all the contemporary complications and it turns out well for him. You being sensible about it all will surely be a big help for him. Good luck!

You’ve summarised exactly how I’m feeling.

Hoping at some point a sensible politician will come along and articulate this into policy to stop children being pressured or funnelled into a making life changing decisions needlessly.

So I expect that has something to do with it. I can't say it's not a worry.

I hope he starts to feel better about it soon. In my experience, discomfort with changing teenage bodies is such a natural thing to go through. It's only now that the idea of being a difference gender is entering people's heads.

As a previous poster said the process of going through puberty itself is thought to make a huge difference to acceptance.

It does seem a peculiarly horrible - immoral - thing to do, to tell children that a wish to change sex is not only a sensible and possibly justified desire, but one that is capable of being fulfilled. Because it isn't, it isn't and it isn't.

The lying about it is the rotten core of all this.

I have a friend whose (younger) teenager daughter is getting counselling due to the trans pressure. Right now she does not know if, as her parent put it, she is female/male/it.

There is a real push from peers and society that kids must jump on this bandwagon and choose some form of gender identity before they are ready.

This is an interesting analisis of the Denton's report

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

The sheer scale of the whole thing, a top international Law firm, a media giant influencing governments globally under the radar and succeeding? Where's the money coming from for such a mammoth initiative? Something doesn't add up

I hope so.

Thank you so much.

And I completely agree. I have made it very clear to my DS that no matter how much he wants to be a girl, he can never be one. And he understands that. I have told him he is free to dress the way he wants etc etc.

He hasn't expressed a desire for anything medical. It would be a very firm no from me.

He has definitely read/been told certain things that I find quite dubious. For example he thought there was a 'male brain' and a 'female brain' and wondered if he had a 'female brain'. I sent him lots of things to read about this, which to be fair to him, he is very open to learning more about it even if it contradicts what he has read/been told.

Thank you so much. He is my eldest so my first experience of parenting a teen. I do hope he feels more comfortable with his body in the next few years. It's such a fine line of accepting how they want to identify yet not accepting a lot of the nonsense around it. I fully accept how he may want to dress, how his appearance is, even the name he wants to be called (he has a female name that I think some of his friends use sometimes and he's told me what it is but hasn't asked me to use it.) But transwomen are not women and he can never become a girl/woman.

I'm very worried about this when my DC start school. DP and I are trying to research schools that haven't been captured. Does anyone know of any? I suppose needs to be private but so many of those have been too

Homeschooling seems to be one of the only safe alternatives nowadays, although obviously not everyone has the funds or time to commit to this