Page 8 | To say something about DN behavior?

MatronicO6 · 2022-08-31T08:04:55+00:00

Have a nephew first grandchild in family so got a lot of attention for himself for a 4 years. He has always been energetic and lively but I am absolutely shocked by his behavior on recent holiday. Things he has done: In every restaurant runs around shouting, crawls under table, when finally sitting at table he loudly shouts inappropriate things (mummy farts, daddy has a willy) so whole restaurant can hear. We got some horrified looks from nearby tables whose meal was clearly interrupted Would refuse to leave playgrounds. Had to go to every playground he saw and then refuse to leave. Basically affecting following plans/dinner reservations etc New 3 month baby sibling he would demand to be with whatever parent had the baby. So baby would have to be put down. At one point when his mum was breastfeeding at a quiet cafe he banged and screamed at window to get her out. Destroyed property of Airbnb. Threw games on ground and refused to pick up. Ignored parents constantly. Every time they asked h to do something he would ignore, pretend he didn't hear or walk away Despite ordering sausage or burger at every meal when offered at a bbq he suddenly didn't either and demanded mum go get him beans,which she had t drive to a British shop forin Middle of feeding other baby On top of that found out when he goes to others houses who has a toy he likes he will refuse to leave until he is given said toy. The whole holiday was a nightmare because of him, every day was just exhausting. And all his mum and dad do is gently tell him he shouldn't do that or this after about ten mins of him throwing stuff. I could go on and on but these are main takeaways from this holiday. Feel like I need to say something to B and SIL but don't know if it's my place! Would you want to be told or let them get on with it?

Original poster

MatronicO6 · 01/09/2022 09:12

DrinkFeckArseBrick · 01/09/2022 08:43

You have had a lot of weird responses here OP, normally on mumsnet if you're disturbed at a restaurant by kids running wild while the parents don't discipline them at all then (assuming no SN) they get good support

I wouldnt say anything if your SiL has a history of being upset at other adults telling her child to stop when he is doing something he shouldn't.

I would avoid another holiday like the plague though. Its not ok for a whole group of people to be made consistently late for restaurant reservations because they've got to wait for a kid who wont finish playing. It's not ok to have the accommodation wrecked by one member of the party. It's not ok to have every meal interrupted and ruined by a child running riot (I know at 4 it's hard to sit down and eat for a long time but assuming you're only having a main and bringing colouring etc he should be able to manage that). So if they ask again I would say no because it seemed to overwhelm their son last time and you think it might be better to holidsy separately (or at least stay in separate properties and eat out separately but meet up in the day). If they insist them you can always comment on the things that affect you eg you found it difficult in the restaurant to enjoy your food with all the running about etc but not sure that will go down well.

I would never ever mention a lot of the other things such as how they let him choose what parent he wants even if the baby is being fed etc as that is pretty much a direct attack on their parenting and I doubt they will tie it to his behaviour at all

I fear it will come to a head at some point if you continue to see much of them...people will forgive a pre schooler for this behaviour but not an older child. also when the babies are old enough to be crawling around on the floor and left alone a bit more, I'd be concerned about how gentle he would be with them or their things if he likes to destroy things.

You have actually touched upon something that I was also concerned about but didn't want to mention as I don't have any experience of it. He is very heavyhanded with his BB. Will approach his mum while breastfeeding and started grabbing and pinching to the point he would leave red marks. They did tell him to stop and to be gentle which he eventually listened to.

He actually tried the same with our DD and DH immediately and firmly told him to stop, that baby was not to be handled that way and he did stop and was very gentle with her from then on. So he can and does listen and respond to adult instructions.

OP posts:

Goldbar · 01/09/2022 10:05

OP, I think you should say something to your brother about his lack of support for SIL. If SIL was busy feeding and caring for her new baby on your family's holiday, then tbh I would have expected most of the work to care for and discipline your nephew to have been done by your brother. If you have a close relationship with him, I'd ask him why he's such an ineffectual parent. Is it because SIL won't let him parent his own child effectively or can he just not be arsed? Imo he's primarily to blame for DN's poor behaviour on holiday... he ought to have taken primary responsibility for amusing and managing DN.

I have a 4yo who is lively, energetic and can be a handful. But my DC was reasonably well-behaved on our recent family holiday because it was tailored around DC's needs (needs, not wants). DC was not allowed to dictate what we did or where we went but a lot of things were planned with DC in mind. So no long meals in restaurants unless the restaurant had a play area, plenty of outdoor activities and we ate at child-friendly times. It doesn't excuse your DN's poor behaviour, but I can't imagine enjoying eating long meals in restaurants with a lively 4yo about.

Your nephew's behaviour does sound very poor in many respects but tbh you all sound a bit wet. There's no way I would have put up with mine or anyone else's 4yo doing some of the things you describe and, if your parents were 'horrified', they should have stepped in to help manage your DN's behaviour or had a stern word with your brother about keeping him under control.

greywinds · 01/09/2022 10:31

That's what's concerned me a bit, all this emphasis on SIL and her parenting, those 2 kids have 2 parents and one is presumably focusing on a young baby, agree @Goldbar

@MatronicO6 has been very fair in her responses - your MiL is probably wrong on asking you to intervene with SIL they're using the wrong levers and you're no longer actively involved in DN's life. The fact you're a teacher won't help.

I wouldn't stand for my kids being manhandled either and neither would I rush into another holiday as nobody enjoyed it, agree with all of that.

It's also hard having a baby away from all your family, been there too.

@MatronicO6 my dd has a SN diagnosis / she is also capable of responding to instructions and listening at times.

Original poster

MatronicO6 · 01/09/2022 10:45

Do you think we didn't do all these things??? We weren't dragging him round museums, we were at the beach, swimming pools, crazy golf etc! Nor where we fine dining with long meals, they were child friendly places at child friendly times. Think the latest we sat down to a meal was 6:30 and we were finished by 7:30. 🙄

My family are not 'wet' there is only so much we can do whilst being respectful to his parents. You are correct that DB should have the primary responsibility for looking after his son whilst SIL was taking care of baby. I actually think it's down to your initial suggestion that SIL will not let him parent effectively.

SIL undermined DB's and others attempts to discipline several times. She would immediately asking DN if he was ok, wanted to stay longer, he could have 5 more mins, if people had used "angry voices" with him to name but a few things. Whilst DN was showing blatant disregard for Airbnb property, DB was telling him off for not looking after it, SIL commented "well it mustn't be that important to them, if they let guests use it." When he was screaming and banging window at cafe,she said he is exploring his feelings. When DN refused BBQ food, DB said tough this is what's on the menu and there was plenty of food he liked, SIL immediately got up and said he could have beans if he wants.

SIL has also advised DB she wants no advice from my mum unless sought which my mum respects. She has also made comments about other family members disciplining him, which is again why we are very cautious about intervening.

BOTH parents are to blame for his behaviour as they have not developed clear boundaries or strategies. He can't be allowed to act like this all year round and then to suddenly change on holiday. It needs to be consistent from both parents.

OP posts:

greywinds · 01/09/2022 11:25

I can see from your latest that sounds like a nightmare. What a hornet's nest! I wonder if your DM and family would use pre-approved strategies for helping DN behave set by SIL? All I can think of apart from avoiding them until they work this out is a completely different tack of 'let's do it your way, how do you want us to respond to x, y, and z issues'? Because the same types of bad behaviour recur continually with small children. If he's exploring his feelings shouldn't he be taken outside to do that safely etc? 'I was concerned for DN's safety when banging windows' etc.

But in general I don't think it's fixable along the current lines of people using conventional discipline or anyone having words - she's firmly rejected several attempts already.

Good luck @MatronicO6 and with your baby too, different parenting styles cause so much pointless conflict in families.

WhatNoRaisins · 01/09/2022 12:12

Angry voices? Exploring his feelings?

OP do yourself a favour and give up. You obviously can't help here and there's no point being the bad guy if you won't make any difference.

MzHz · 01/09/2022 12:58

giveovernate · 31/08/2022 17:16

@MzHz I was questioning OPs parenting skills, the same way she was asking about questioning other peoples.......

Agree it's totally ridiculous, children are all different.

But all kids will terrorise everyone and behave similarly to the DN here when parenting is so contradictory and self-sabotaging

giveovernate · 02/09/2022 17:25

MatronicO6 · 01/09/2022 10:45

Do you think we didn't do all these things??? We weren't dragging him round museums, we were at the beach, swimming pools, crazy golf etc! Nor where we fine dining with long meals, they were child friendly places at child friendly times. Think the latest we sat down to a meal was 6:30 and we were finished by 7:30. 🙄

My family are not 'wet' there is only so much we can do whilst being respectful to his parents. You are correct that DB should have the primary responsibility for looking after his son whilst SIL was taking care of baby. I actually think it's down to your initial suggestion that SIL will not let him parent effectively.

SIL undermined DB's and others attempts to discipline several times. She would immediately asking DN if he was ok, wanted to stay longer, he could have 5 more mins, if people had used "angry voices" with him to name but a few things. Whilst DN was showing blatant disregard for Airbnb property, DB was telling him off for not looking after it, SIL commented "well it mustn't be that important to them, if they let guests use it." When he was screaming and banging window at cafe,she said he is exploring his feelings. When DN refused BBQ food, DB said tough this is what's on the menu and there was plenty of food he liked, SIL immediately got up and said he could have beans if he wants.

SIL has also advised DB she wants no advice from my mum unless sought which my mum respects. She has also made comments about other family members disciplining him, which is again why we are very cautious about intervening.

BOTH parents are to blame for his behaviour as they have not developed clear boundaries or strategies. He can't be allowed to act like this all year round and then to suddenly change on holiday. It needs to be consistent from both parents.

Oh so your DB is perfect, it's just your SIL that's the issue...

That's a drip feed!

Midpmcoffee · 02/09/2022 17:42

Isn’t it just

but apparently she gets on really well with the SIL! 😂

giveovernate · 02/09/2022 17:45

Midpmcoffee · 02/09/2022 17:42

Isn’t it just

but apparently she gets on really well with the SIL! 😂

With friends like that who needs enemies?

Midpmcoffee · 02/09/2022 17:52

giveovernate · 02/09/2022 17:45

With friends like that who needs enemies?

Show quote history

Brace yourself for the OP’s response….. !

ddl1 · 02/09/2022 18:41

I'm sure that the parents know. He may be jealous of the baby, or just 'going through a phase' or of course he could have longer-term problems. I am not sure that a holiday where children's routines are disrupted, and other people are likely to be disturbed in restaurants, etc., is a great idea for a family with a boisterous 4-year-old and a baby; but that is not my business. In any case, probably best for you not to bring it up, unless the parents do. He will presumably soon start school, and if he is as disruptive there as on holiday, I assume that the teachers will bring it up.

HowzAboutIt · 03/09/2022 00:04

Oh so your DB is perfect, it's just your SIL that's the issue...
That's a drip feed

She literally said in the first sentence of the last paragraph - BOTH parents are to blame! "Both" - meaning er....both parents,not one, both. Not sure how clear OP could have put it

giveovernate · 03/09/2022 00:25

HowzAboutIt · 03/09/2022 00:04

Oh so your DB is perfect, it's just your SIL that's the issue...
That's a drip feed

She literally said in the first sentence of the last paragraph - BOTH parents are to blame! "Both" - meaning er....both parents,not one, both. Not sure how clear OP could have put it

But er saying that DB does try but er SIL stops him at er every time?

Er do you not read that?

Midpmcoffee · 03/09/2022 06:47

giveovernate · 03/09/2022 00:25

But er saying that DB does try but er SIL stops him at er every time?

Er do you not read that?

Show quote history

do you say”er” a lot in real life?

Midpmcoffee · 03/09/2022 07:02

HowzAboutIt · 03/09/2022 00:04

Oh so your DB is perfect, it's just your SIL that's the issue...
That's a drip feed

She literally said in the first sentence of the last paragraph - BOTH parents are to blame! "Both" - meaning er....both parents,not one, both. Not sure how clear OP could have put it

Yes but read the follow up posts where the DB is conveyed as desperately trying to parent and discipline his son, whereas the SIL doesn’t just not parent or discipline but actively sabotages the DB’s efforts!!

giveovernate · 03/09/2022 07:42

@Midpmcoffee nope I was echoing the post before that was insinuating I was unable to read the OPs post and make a decision as to what it was saying!

For sone reason they like a teenager, said er it says both of them! In bold as well as if I was stupid and couldn't read it.

giveovernate · 03/09/2022 07:42

Yes but read the follow up posts where the DB is conveyed as desperately trying to parent and discipline his son, whereas the SIL doesn’t just not parent or discipline but actively sabotages the DB’s efforts!!

Exactly!

TheEggChair · 03/09/2022 08:06

I have a friend who is similar to your sil who doesn't believe in discipline. I stepped back from joint family trips because it was just too stressful for my family. The incident that finally made me stop seeing her kids was when the youngest crawled on the table at a restaurant. He smashed, glass and crockery, I was absolutely horrified. My friend just carried on chatting with her husband and ignored her dc.

I see her alone now which is better, she's been a good friend to me and I don't want to lose the friendship. I have developed strategies to cope with the rare times I see her children. Unfortunately her lack of discipline has allowed the dc to develop antisocial behaviour. Lots of people avoid them now and she can't or refuses to understand why.

Similar will happen to your db and sil, go low contact with them and don't go on holiday. If asked why just say that it doesn't work for you as you like to relax and have fun. Your dB can fill in the gaps himself if he's intelligent enough; it's hard for him to acknowledge that his ds is spoiling it for everyone.

Goldbar · 03/09/2022 08:13

SIL does seem to be the target here. It may be that she is actively trying to prevent her husband parenting properly, but it may also be that it is easier to blame the outsider, in this case SIL.

There are two children here, one a small baby. It would seem reasonable for the parents, both of whom are on holiday, to 'divide and conquer'. If SIL is doing most of the baby care (which she might have no choice in, if breastfeeding or the baby is clingy), that means BIL should be doing most of the legwork for the older child. If the older child is allowed to run wild, that is mostly BIL's fault especially if SIL is busy with the baby. If SIL is not allowing BIL to parent effectively, BIL needs to get his big boy pants on and sort that out with SIL, not simply throw up his hands and say "What can I do?".

Arenanewbie · 03/09/2022 08:15

I wouldn’t mention anything, I wouldn’t go on another holiday with them and I wouldn’t tell them why.
I have a bit similar situation in the family, less extreme but still noticeable and we’re visiting as we live abroad. The main similarity is that child behaves a bit similar and adults presents different approaches (in my relative’s case parents and grandparents). I discussed things (very gently) with child’s dad when he shared his concerns with me (I’m his relative) but never raised the topic myself and never commented during the situations. My DH and DD ( teen) were instructed before the trip not to comment as I knew it won’t go down well so we just smiled and moved to another room if anything. I can see why parents want you to comment with your professional hat on but it will definitely damage your relationship with your SIL and with your DB consequently.