To say something about DN behavior?

[MatronicO6]

Have a nephew first grandchild in family so got a lot of attention for himself for a 4 years. He has always been energetic and lively but I am absolutely shocked by his behavior on recent holiday.

Things he has done:
In every restaurant runs around shouting, crawls under table, when finally sitting at table he loudly shouts inappropriate things (mummy farts, daddy has a willy) so whole restaurant can hear. We got some horrified looks from nearby tables whose meal was clearly interrupted

Would refuse to leave playgrounds. Had to go to every playground he saw and then refuse to leave. Basically affecting following plans/dinner reservations etc

New 3 month baby sibling he would demand to be with whatever parent had the baby. So baby would have to be put down. At one point when his mum was breastfeeding at a quiet cafe he banged and screamed at window to get her out.

Destroyed property of Airbnb. Threw games on ground and refused to pick up.

Ignored parents constantly. Every time they asked h to do something he would ignore, pretend he didn't hear or walk away

Despite ordering sausage or burger at every meal when offered at a bbq he suddenly didn't either and demanded mum go get him beans,which she had t drive to a British shop forin Middle of feeding other baby

On top of that found out when he goes to others houses who has a toy he likes he will refuse to leave until he is given said toy.

The whole holiday was a nightmare because of him, every day was just exhausting. And all his mum and dad do is gently tell him he shouldn't do that or this after about ten mins of him throwing stuff. I could go on and on but these are main takeaways from this holiday.

Feel like I need to say something to B and SIL but don't know if it's my place! Would you want to be told or let them get on with it?

I MIGHT say: 'I can see how exhausting this is for you, what with the newborn and trying to give DN enough attention - is there anything I can do? Would you like me to step in sometimes?'
Then again, I might avoid them like the plague for the next few years....

Maybe you could give the SIL some pointers yourself on how to raise little angels like yours?

Look obviously it is absolutely shite and permissive parenting. No limits and no boundaries for the child. But it isn’t your job to teach them. Limit time in the child’s company first a while until things improve down the line.

As an aside because this comes up here a lot, I have a son with SN. We hang around with loads of other parents in the same boat. 99% of them pull up their kids on any unacceptable behaviour, kindly and within the child’s cognitive understanding except the very odd shit permissive parent here or there who hides behind the kids SN not to parent their child and then shrugs and acts bewildered during bad behaviour. SN doesn’t equal badly behaved parents or children anymore than non SN. Your nephew is not being parented well. That is his parent's choice not his, they are at fault here. Give them as wide a berth as you need to to enjoy time with the rest of the family.

@shazzybazzy34 not sure what your particular problem is, it's mostly luck isn't it? I've not targeted you in any comments personally.

I mentioned that mine behave well as someone said people seeing it from the other side must have little monsters too, which I don't.

And then the focus on schools picking up poor behaviour.

Tbh there are many aspects to school bad behaviour, over crowing, under funding, lack of playground space, lack of structure, lack of SN dx and support, not just rubbish parents.

@Rounddog I agree with you - SN parent here (maybe it's just my permissive parenting) but we always have a red line is a red line and don't permit bad behaviour or say ooh the other kid triggered that biting etc but there is that window with SN when you don't know what you're looking at and they don't respond to consequences, you remove them and they melt down etc.

And you don't get to the bottom of anything by making your overt judgment of someone's parenting public in a family.

It is VERY apparent from the OP's post that is is down to poor parenting, no consequences, giving into the child, allowing him to rule the roost. What is described above is SHIT parenting. SHIT!

And yes it will NOT be tolerated in school. The child will have proper boundaries and will be expected to follow rules, the fact he does not have any at home just makes it harder for him when he does go into a classroom setting. So the shit parenting has a knock on effect. They are doing the child a disservice.

Ok, let me put it this way, would you accept that behaviour from one of your children?

Can you not see that the SIL went to get the beans because if her DN had the tantrum and didn't eat you'd all have hiked your judgement up even further?

Or because she is one of those parents that can't possibly allow her child to be told no, or be upset? It is so very common to see people aim for 'gentle parenting' but end up imposing zero boundaries or expectations and end up with overwhelmed children that have no idea how to behave because their parents just don't parent them

In general no, but being on holiday with a 3 month old, DN who I was struggling with, and DB's unkind family who kept trying to tell my kid off whilst implying I'm a shit parent - I don't think you'd see my 'normal' parenting.

Agreed @greywinds before our DS was diagnosed we spent a lot of time removing him from environments he wasn’t coping in to prevent meltdowns, walking around with him out for dinner in restaurants, taking turns eating etc not sitting around shrugging our shoulders at shitty behaviour. And as I said I think that is the absolute norm with other SN parents we know, they don’t sit idly by and watch on dotingly at bad behaviour, they manage the child and the environment as best as they can to try to get the best out of the situations they are in. Yes there is that spot in the middle before diagnosis where parents are trying to get a handle on things but the SN parents I know are still mainly actively parenting in that time and people can see they are doing their best.

Don't say anything -it will only cause tension between you.
Instead limit the time you spend with them and be clear about your boundaries. Simply get up and leave a situation where the child is behaving wildly/inappropriately.
We had an aggressive nephew -I dreaded spending time with. Then I realised I didn't have to put up with it. One day he pulled my daughter's hair and his parents hugged him in response. Got up and left and did the same thing everytime he got violent. I blanked all the: "he was only playing... it's what boys do... he didn't mean it" nonsense.
Eventually he learnt that people don't want to be around him if he behaves inconsiderately.
If he hasn't been told at home or nursery he will get told in reception.

Yanbu but they already know.

So what? None of this is anything to do with you or OP.

This happens to millions if children every year - they get to school and realise there is a new pecking order.

Nothing the OP says is going to change anything.

The OP doesn't sound particularly involved with her nephew, so she hasn't earned the right to discipline him. My sister used to drop off nieces and nephews to me because she knew that I love them hugely, spend lots of time with them and discipline them as needed. OP just seems to be judging from a distance.

I totally agree @Rounddog about other parents of SN kids, but maybe they are still hoping he'll cope, don't know that taking him out altogether until the food comes then home straight after is the optimal thing to do here. People very often aren't thing clearly when they have a new baby.

Hell, @MatronicO6 if I was going to do or suggest something that's what I'd have done, suggested he needs a movement break, walk him round in the car park, bring him back for food and take him home straight after.

If nothing else, seeing him as overwhelmed, overloaded and needing to move and not to try and meet expectations he can't meet takes the negative stuff out of it.

Completely agree that its more than likely boils down to shitty weak parenting. So the child has a new sibling and is in a new environment - big whoop! So what? This doesn't excuse any of it and if the parents are so knackered that they can't cope then let other family members step in! But clearly they think that their wishy washy approach is the right one so honestly just distance yourself at this point. Your SIL is clearly the defensive type.

FWIW my BIL kids (3 of them) were absolutely hideous, their behaviour was unbearable to be around.

The parents couldn't (or in most cases) wouldn't control or discipline them, nor would they let any of us help. So all that happened was that we took a massive step back and barely saw them for over a decade and they thought we were the problem!

We had tried to diplomatically and gently explain but it was pointless as they refused to address their offsprings disgusting behaviour and the impact it had on others, they just didn't give a shit.

I suspect your SIL and brother are the same. So don't waste your time or energy, just take a big step back.

Another person who could give a few tips, this time to the Op about how to be a cool auntie and earn the right to discipline.

I'd talk to them in a supportive way ask how they are doing, how they are coping with dc behaviour. No judgment. But also understand behaviours can be worse on holidays and parents may be less inclined to discipline on holiday or may be struggling with behaviour management with stress of new baby.

Some children are hard work and therefore parenting is more challenging. I generally find the people who judge either a , don't have children or b, have easy going children who responded to typical parenting strategies.

My son who does have asd could not respond to typical parenting so we had to work harder to find ways to manage and lower our expectations. The amount of criticism I got was astonishing. If it was my first child I think I would have been crushed. Fortunately after raising 2 very easy children, working for 20 years with vulnerable children and having a diploma in early years and a degree in relational therapy I'm pretty confident with my parenting skills. One of the worst was my bil "you just need to tell him" unfortunately for bil he got the female version of my son and she runs rings around him.

Never got any critique for my other dc and they were far easier and if I'm honest due to less experience my parenting was no where near as good.

This OP

if you have to be around them, always have a backup plan to remove yourself when the shit behavior starts.

I'm not sure saying anything will help, but I have to admit I'm baffled that people seem to be thinking that because the child has a baby sibling and he's on holiday that it's somehow ok? They're completely ineffectual parents if they don't ever say no or remove him from a situation where he's being disruptive and rude. He's 4, not a toddler.

Being embarrassed or tired or whatever is no excuse for not addressing poor behaviour. And no, I'm not advocating for bollocking the child every time.

Dear god they are exhausted parents with a 3 month old - cut them some slack. The first year of having a baby and toddler was one of the worst of my life

No wonder children are so badly behaved when two parents can't manage their own child and meekly just accept everything. If you can't manage one child then don't have another. Or don't go on holiday and let everyone else suffer because you won't do ANYTHING to mitigate the poor behaviour of a child who should know better!

Absolute this.

A child who is allowed act like a brat down to weak parenting has an effect on EVERYONE else around them. The whole holiday was a nightmare because of this kid, a holiday that the OP had paid for and she had to put up with this crap from shitty parents? What a waste of money. The whole holiday hinges on the child getting what he wants when he wants it...or else. Imagine sitting at a table with the kids shouting stuff like that and annoying other people and you can say or do nothing? Fuck that shit.

Widest berth ever going forward OP.

Having a little sibling is disruptive but also the most natural thing in the world. Parenting way too lax. I have three kids and none of my children would have got away with that in any circumstances. What is that is that they are doing him the opposite of a favour as in real life you get ostracised when your behaviour is that bad, and people don't put up with it!

He sounds difficult but it seems like the main issue, due to your language and description, is that he gets more attention (as he’s had it for the last 4 years!) than your new baby?

You sound really spiteful.

The parents will know. Not sure what there is to gain by telling them.

Wait until your perfectly behaved (!) baby turns 4!

And?

OP I wouldn’t say anything as you will be the bad guy here if you do. He will be starting school in the next year or two and his behaviour is probably going to be an issue highlighted in school. If he carries on behaving like that he will soon become a very unpopular child in his class which might be the wake up call his parents needs.

Yes he has a new sibling which will have a massive impact but he is 4 and his behaviour is totally unacceptable. I have 3 kids and have had to deal with behaviour changes from my other kids when babies were born but would never have tolerated that behaviour from them. My son with autism and adhd behaves far better than that as he knows he is expected to.

I wouldn’t be going on holiday with them again though. His behaviour ruined your holiday so that’s not a situation I would repeat personally. If your brother brings it up and presses you for a reason you don’t want to go away then maybe mention it to him but other than than that stay out of it.

I wouldn't say anything, he'll learn soon enough when he gets to school that unchecked behaviour like that isn't acceptable.

I'd just radically cut down time with your relatives and don't go on holiday with them again. If asked why you could say that the age difference between your baby and DN meant that you didn't feel it was a good mix. If they've got an ounce of common sense they'll work it put between the lines.