I have outgrown men

[Namechanged007]

Before all the namalt brigade come along I'm well aware.

Thing is it's true I have outgrown the ridiculouness and childishness of men.

I'm married but even so I feel like I'd be better off alone most of the time. Nothing wrong with dh as such but I'm more able and stronger alone.

I have just been to the pub and all the women were complimentary of each other. Going with the flow. And enjoying themselves. The men were either grumpy or showing brovado. There was an incident on our table that involved new men intimidating each other and I just went home.

The thing is this isn't a table of young men. It's professionals and grown ups. I just cant be bothered with it.

None of the women got involved but it spoilt the night.

I told dh I don't have time for such pathetic behaviour.

It never ends. It doesn't matter how old or wise we become men seem to revert back to this strange behaviour.

I deal with it day in day out at my work and I simply can't be bothered. If I never had to see another man, mansplaining, dominating conversation, throwing their weight around, bravado, dick measuring, causing a scene in my life it would be too soon.

Absolutely done with it.

OK so the answer is no then. You don't accept 33%.

Could you tell me what you think the percentage is and post a link to a more reliable source than the ONS to back it up.

I'd be willing to hazard a guess that a lot of the behaviour women on the thread have been complaining about has involved educated men with professional jobs, who don't live on council estates.

Surely this shows that you simply have very poor taste in men.

If these are the men you prefer best you avoid them.

Indeed. It's usually rich and powerful men who seem to get involved in sex scandals etc. Professional men who become used to getting their own way and lording power over others.

I've found working class men more likely to come to a woman's defence when being harassed etc. Professional men are usually too scared and look the other way.

Wow @LoopyLoo1991 what is this classist bilge? council estate thugs, electricians and tech installation guys

There is a bit of sterortyping going on in this thread but you have taken it to another level!

And the "nicer quite middle class academic types" -ha! they are as bad the worst of them honestly 😆

They may not do the macho posturing but they will drown you in a deluge of statistics just to prove a point. Again like some on this thread. Death by a thousand cuts.

And they will never admit they are wrong.

She isn't wrong though

Education is the biggest factor in sexism and misogyny

Working class men are often less educated

Therefore more prone to such views. It's also why they're more prone to vote a certain way, have more traditional views of gender roles in society etc.

They're also more likely to have been raised in a more traditional home setting, dad off to work, mum at home etc.

You don't need an academic education to know that the mistreatment and disrespect of other people is wrong. That's a core value that's either present in a person or it isn't.
While education may smooth out the rough edges by teaching people the right language to use, and how to present themselves in an acceptable manner, and have some role in awareness raising of the more nuanced issues, it doesn't turn you into a decent person, just as the lack of it doesn't make you a sexist misogynist.
Your working class stereotypes are also outdated. Many lower income children are raised in households headed by a single woman. Many others in households where income levels do not allow for a SAHM.
The households most likely to operate with traditional gender roles are those with a man in a sufficiently highly paid career to support that lifestyle. At least if we take MN as a barometer.

@5128gap

In an ideal world yes

But it's been seen time and time again the less educated are more prone to hold 'shitty' views

About a host of topics, the role of women in society and respect is just one of them (more likely to hold racist views, sexist views etc.)

The same could be said that you don't need an acedemic education to not be a racist, but time and time again that's shown not to be the case.

Education has a direct link to these issues

Education is the biggest factor in sexism and misogyny
Disagree completely. Education levels have no impact on sexism or misogyny- the only influence it has is that sexists/misogynists with higher education are sneakier and better at hiding it.

They're also more likely to have been raised in a more traditional home setting, dad off to work, mum at home etc.

Nope nope nope. Middle class were more likely to have the traditional gender roles of dad at work and mum the housewife, because dad was a professional with a high enough salary to support an entire family. Not working class. Most working class both parents worked as did the children as soon as feasible. However in working class the man’s work was culturally prioritised over the woman’s work, but this doesn’t mean the women were SAHMs not earning anything. They were. They had to because wages were too low for just one person to support an entire family.

@TokidokiBarbie''Seems a bit silly to be like 'OMG! 170 Met officers, good lawdy' when it's actually a comparatively low figure.''

These are police officers whose job is to protect us and who should have undergone thorough vetting before being let loose on the public and also be subject to ongoing scrutiny.

Even if it was only a single officer with a history of domestic violence and misogynist views it would be too much as far as I am concerned.

People in the force should have zero criminal conviction themselves and certainly not indulge in dodgy behaviour behind closed doors. We place our trust in them and they are in a position of power.

We have really appalling conviction rates when it comes to sexual assaults and rapes already and if women can't trust the police it will prevent many of them from reporting these crimes.

My point was if you cannot trust even those who are supposedly here to protect us, why should we trust the average man on the street?

I am always shocked how some people will do anything to minimise domestic violence and abuse of power...

But it's been seen time and time again the less educated are more prone to hold 'shitty' views

No, this is complete BS and an example of classism. The idea that the “better educated” compared to the “less educated working class” are morally superior (not sexist, not misogynist, not racist). It’s simply not true, it’s just classism to think it is.

My point was if you cannot trust even those who are supposedly here to protect us, why should we trust the average man on the street?

Your point is false. You can trust a MET police officer 10x more than you can trust the average man on the street when it comes to domestic violence. Of course no profession that hires tens of thousands is going to be perfectly absent any violence or anyone that goes on to be a criminal. Sarah Everard is a rare and tragic case of a MET officer who raped and murdered a lone woman. But no profession is 100% full of safe people. Look at any profession, you will find abusers, rapists, murderers.

It’s also not minimising to counter your scaremongering about MET police officers as not to be trusted with the facts that statistically 170 allegations of abuse out of over 33,000 officers is 1/10th the rate of abuse allegations you’d see in the general population. So, your narrative of MET police officers being dangerous is false because the facts show that women are in reality 10x safer with a MET police officer than with the average man.

Now there may be a profession even safer than the average, not saying there isn’t, but 10x safer than the average is pretty fucking good. Their vetting and monitoring process obviously is 90% effective.

I don't think so. It's just different based on demographic.

I've mentioned this in an old thread but early in my working life nude calendars were rife in the workplace. Garages, offices, locker rooms, workshops etc. Sun readers are mostly of a certain demographic and cat calling etc. perpetrated mostly by tradesmen. All of the above is from a certain social class, which might suggest that you're onto something.

However, speak to my wife and she'll tell you that the most horrific sexism, abuse and misogyny has taken place by the more affluent in the finance /banking industries. Between her and her female colleagues they've had endless issues and don't get her started on the annual events that were basically knocking shops for management of all levels. It was expected that they'd get their fill with the younger staff. We're talking major high street banks.

And there's never any shortage of reports/law suits against the more educated where power is a major factor.

Agree with you there . Unfortunately we mainly deal with the council estate types , so rarely interact with professional men - either the good or the bad types .

These are guys I have to deal with on daily basis. I am also using direct quote from BF's housing officer on 'coucil estate thugs' , as he and his neighbours were constantly harassed by them during lockdown.
Probably went bit over the top with my venting.

@Lunar270

You can think what you like

It's a well known phenomenon that the less educated people are the more likely they are to hold certain views. It's linked to critical thinking abilities.

"Cognitive ability—broadly defined as a set of mental skills that allow an individual to learn from experience, adapt to new situations and solve problems, understand and manipulate abstract concepts, and use knowledge to act on the environment—is widely held to have a profoundly liberalizing influence on racial attitudes"

"higher cognitive ability promotes tolerance of racial out-groups and a sincere commitment to racial equality. Indeed, several studies now provide evidence that higher cognitive ability is associated with lower anti-black prejudice, lower authoritarianism, greater tolerance of out-groups, and greater support for egalitarian values among whites (Bobo and Licari 1989; Deary et al. 2008; Hodson and Busseri 2012; Kanazawa 2010)."

Higher levels of education has also been shown to link to being more liberal in general, again this is well understood and accepted - www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/04/26/a-wider-ideological-gap-between-more-and-less-educated-adults/

Working class adults are more likely to vote for conservative policies and parties too.

Studies were done in the US with this issue around Trump vs Hilary, working class men were more likely to vote for a man even when they had concerns about both parties. Compared to other groups

It's not BS

It's a well studied and mostly accepted area of research

@Cheeseonbeans

You too can think what you like. I've just googled and there's as much research to support both arguments. It greatly depends on how much confirmation bias you're looking for.

Except I'm not the one looking to pin more of it on one social class.

For sure, there are more poor people than those in the middle to upper classes. But sexism is rife in all walks of life, whichever way you want to 'present' statistics.

@Discovereads '''Your point is false.''

It is not for you to decide whether my point is false or not...This is my view on the matter. You can disagree with it but it is no less valid than yours.

I was a victim or sexual assault in the capital and a big part as to why I did not report it to the police is the abysmal conviction rate and the fact that too many Met officers have been involved in dodgy incidents when it came to women's safety. Even if the majority are decent, there are too many men on the force who are not.

I think the women and some men on here claiming single women CAN'T possibly be happier without men are trying a bit too desperately to defend their own life choices, or possibly running from fear they too could end up alone.

The only bit I don't like about living on my own (for 15 years) and not dating (for 3 years now, my choice entirely) is people telling me how miserable I must be about it. In fact they have always been men saying it to my face. Online you also get women, or at least people claiming to be women.

By God dont' they get uncomfortable when I tell them every time that no, I was much more unhappy when I gave a toss about men as partners. 'Well... don't just GIVE UP!' is the last comment I got on that. From a man.

The women posters on here coming on to loudly call us singletons lonely or pathetic or whatever are outing themselves already as extremely unhappy people. Online abuse is not the mark of a satisfied person in a lovely companionable life.

Also we get told we are manhaters (a phrase right out of the 70s) for not wanting men as partners, which has happened on this thread. And you can say a million times that you like lots of men as friends, that you're rather fond of lots of your exes and whodathought, your sons and father etc etc but no, you're still a manhater who clearly wants to chuck your own offspring out onto the street.

All going to show that crappy people m and f get even crappier when resorting to stereotypes and particularly online.

I don't think its possible to know.
With education comes an increased awareness of the attitudes that are acceptable, the appropriate language to use, what the law allows, what is currently frowned upon. Presenting oneself in accordance with these things and knowing you need to conceal certain attitudes in certain environments, is nowhere near the same as not holding a shitty attitude. So while educated people may be less likely to publicly express poor attitudes, there is no way of knowing if they hold them. In fact when compated with a person who doesn't know what is unacceptable so fails to self censor.
I do know I've had the misfortune to be present in a group comprised of educated white people who obviously considered themselves 'safe' for the mask to slip. "They weren't being racist but..."
I've also been the woman who served the drinks in a bar frequented by professional educated men and clearly being of no account, so no need to censor themselves in front of, regularly witnessed some of the most offensive sexism I've ever encountered.

Totally agree with you there Cheeseonbeans. I have been in similar situations with professional men and was nearly sick at what I heard. Have also been the lucky recipient of the attentions of a number of high ranking academic men and although they would be far more careful not to sound sexist even when pissed, the games they try to play with women are even worse imho. Pretending to be interested in a young and less powerful woman's work, setting up meetings about 'opportunities in their department' in order to try to get laid (words they would never use, but they do it).

Once I became more in invisible eg middle aged I would hear them talking openly about pretty graduate students 25 years younger than them to other men and it would be the same old sexist shit: 'she even touched my leg once when we were talking, she wants me mate' (from balding fat bloke with a wife everyone at the conference knows and likes).

Things may change as women get more power- I do think that the corrupting influence of relative power over women without responsibility, which men as a group have enjoyed for centuries, is a factor in this. But something about male sexuality and the narcissism so many men seem to fall prey to makes them far more likely to indulge in behaviour toward women ranging from the manipulative to the downright aggressive and repellent.

Quote a gap between working class men and 'council estate thugs'. 😂

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. It’s not me deciding anything, I’m not differing with you on an opinion, but with your freewheeling with the facts.

I'm a female choosing to live without men. What's your excuse for posting on here?