Does your children's high school give demit points...

[senneeds]

Our local high schools give demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc; if a child gets a certain number of points they get dentition.

I was wondering if other people's high school's do the same?

I ask because I was diagnosed with ADHD in my 50s... and I don't remember my high school giving out demerit points for these behaviours; it bothers me a lot that this happens in our local schools because a child being late, losing and forgetting things and not handing in homework are all ADHD traits.

A child can not get diagnosed as having ADHD unless they have evidence of these behaviours - so does that mean our schools are effectively punishing kids for their disabilities?

And while some schools might make allowances for the kids with ADHD and other SENs which have known executive function deficits...how about the kids who have not been diagnosed yet? It can't be great for their self esteem to be getting the message that how their brain works is so undesirable that they need to be punished or threatened with punishment.

I found a survey by ADHD UK who surveyed 800 teachers and found that 74% of these teachers did not recognise difficulty with organisation to be a symptom of ADHD and 78% did not recognise difficulty interacting socially to be a symptom of ADHD. adhduk.co.uk/teachers-and-adhd/

I also found this article about ADHD in the classroom thought provoking:
www.fintanoregan.com/fairness-isnt-giving-everybody-the-same-its-giving-everybody-what-they-need/

YANBU - yes my local high school gives demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc.

YABU - no my local high school does not give demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc.

I’m not interested in a discussion with someone who’s aim is blatantly clear 👍🏻

👌

And this comment While you think most kids with SEN might be able to meet those expectations, that usually comes at a cost to the child which shows up in other areas of their lives. is the sort of thing I'm referring to when I'm saying how depressing it is that kids with SEN are being referred to in this general negative way. Starting with the assumption of deficit and damage....awful.

I’m not interested in a discussion with someone who’s aim is blatantly clear

You seemed to be suggesting that my aim was for no reasonable adjustments to be made for anyone, ever, so I'm not sure you do know.

Both my kids have complex additional support needs, I certainly don’t start with an assumption of deficit and damage. A demerit based, punitive approach to behaviour management does start from a place of deficit for all kids, making no differentiation between unwilling or unable.

Do you really think a punitive approach to behaviour management is the best, or indeed only, way to work?

I've seen where a system of no sanctions for poor behaviour ends up, so I'm generally in favour of a behaviour management system that includes them.

Both my kids have complex additional support needs, I certainly don’t start with an assumption of deficit and damage.

I am sure that is very challenging.

But I feel you are extrapolating your experiences with your children to other people's children when you say things like 'While you think most kids with SEN might be able to meet those expectations, that usually comes at a cost to the child which shows up in other areas of their lives'

I’ve not said there should never be sanctions but there’s a difference between sanctions being a option of last resort and them being the first thing you reach for.

A demerit is generally a logging of a behaviour rather than a sanction.

But I feel you are extrapolating your experiences with your children to other people's children when you say things like 'While you think most kids with SEN might be able to meet those expectations, that usually comes at a cost to the child which shows up in other areas of their lives'

Im actually drawing on research which shows higher levels of anxiety and stress across a range of children with additional support needs as a result of their school experiences.

Don't pretend that you're doing these kids a favour by dressing up "denying reasonable adjustments in line with their disability" as "high expections" because that is also bollocks.

I don't think you can say that that is because they are expected to bring a pen or get to lessons on time.

A student with dyspraxia, for example, may find PE very stressful, therefore have a higher level of stress and anxiety based around that, but not about punctuality. A student with autism may struggle with the social interaction, noise, or lights, but be fine about having a pen.

These are individuals.

Don't pretend that you're doing these kids a favour by dressing up "denying reasonable adjustments in line with their disability" as "high expections" because that is also bollocks.

I don't think you'll be able to find a post where I said children should be denied reasonable adjustments in line with their disability, because that would be bollocks.

@Hungryharriet you talk about students struggling later in life. Well yes of course they do. They don't suddenly become NT when then turn 18 or 21. School can support by helping the child work out what strategies they need to manage basic expectations of everyday life.
The education system is exceptionally rigid. As someone said, managing the bring in time 6 times a day in different rooms that change over two weeks plus homework given in many different formats along with the actual learning that is expected is really complex, and without reasonable adjustments some kids cannot manage this.
Once out of the education system, you have the opportunity to forge a career that plays to your strengths, if you're lucky, and / or have a workplace that follows the EA and puts reasonable adjustments in place. A RA, for example, would not behaving a rigid start / finish time. Entirely possible in many workplaces / professions.

But if the child spends their whole school life as a round peg constantly trying and failing to fit into a square hole, then this will have a profound impact on them. Is that what we really want?

@Hungryharriet

My dd is a very high achieving student at a selective, mainstream private school.

If supported correctly at school she will achieve 3 A levels at A or A* grade.

She has been recommended to follow an academically rigorous university course.

She excels at both music and sport.

If school get their approach wrong, eg a teacher uses a critical, punitive, approach, she falls apart. Self harm, panic attacks, complete shutdown etc. She is approximately 30% less mature than her peers. She struggles massively to maintain (but not make) friendships. She requires additional support to help her negotiate a myriad of small social situations.

Will she always need this level of support? Hopefully not. She should reach full emotional maturity at approximately 26-28.

Does she need extra support at the moment? Absolutely.

I hope that she will register her difficulties when/if she goes to university and will receive reasonable adjustments and support.

I also hope that she will declare her disabilities when applying for jobs to ensure that she gets the right support.

Why shouldn't she receive support? She is an intelligent, talented young woman with a huge range of skills and attributes who would be an asset to any university or job.

Would you suggest not supporting someone with mental health issues, or someone who finds maths a challenge?

Your aim since you started on the thread has been clear.

You’re full of the bollocks whataboutery that always happens on these threads.

its always the same few tranches that is blatant ableism, later dressed up as faux concern that adjustments actually just prevent students with SEN from seeing their potential.

Its bollocks. And clear.

I don't think you can say that that is because they are expected to bring a pen or get to lessons on time.

Thats a pretty reductive way of looking at it. The student with autism may have struggled with a noisy PE lesson, struggled with noisy corridors, struggled with the bell telling them to change class, raising general stress levels. The knowledge that they need to have a pen or get a demerit may make them repeatedly check they have a pen (in the right colour) and overthink what might happen if the pen gets lost. They then need to negotiate social stuff at break time etc while knowing they need to comply with what the school requires.

These stresses are cumulative, with a myriad of situations to negotiate which on their own aren’t a big deal but combined across the course of the day start to add up.

And that’s assuming a diagnosis and some staff understanding of their particular, individual challenges. No diagnosis, or staff who take the “I just want them to bring a pen” approach and the school day quickly becomes very challenging.

If school get their approach wrong, eg a teacher uses a critical, punitive, approach, she falls apart. Self harm, panic attacks, complete shutdown etc. She is approximately 30% less mature than her peers. She struggles massively to maintain (but not make) friendships. She requires additional support to help her negotiate a myriad of small social situations.

You could be describing my daughter though she is younger. The right approach means she is happy, engaged and able to learn. The wrong one results in high levels of anxiety, school refusal and no learning. The right approach doesn’t actually cost anything in terms of additional resources but requires flexibility from the school and a positive approach from her class teacher.

@Littlefish

Thank you for explaining how the disability impacts your daughter. Is this autism or ADHD? I am assuming that she gets to lessons on time and with the right equipment (based on her predicted grades).

I have an undiagnosed autistic grandson, younger than your daughter appears to be, given that you are talking about A levels. To me his autism is very obvious, although I can't go into details on the internet. He attends a prestigious, extremely academic London private school. As far as I know (and I only know what his mum tells me), he has never been given my kind of sanction for being late to class or forgetting equipment. On the contrary, he he manages to organize himself very well.

Which serves to underline my point about autistic children (although the OP was talking about ADHD children), as long as they are not severely impaired, being capable of turning up to lessons on time, properly equipped.

The OP was objecting to children with invisible disabilities receiving demerits. In my opinion, as long as they are reasonably capable, they should be given demerits if they can't turn up to class like other children. Why should the education of the majority of the class suffer because a teacher has to waste time going over what has been missed by latecomers ?

Would you suggest not supporting someone with mental health issues, or someone who finds maths a challenge

Of course not, but your question is too sweeping and generalized. It would depend on the level and type of mental illness, or the difficulties with maths. Some children are good at maths, others not.

This all seems to be focused on diagnosis and reasonable adjustment for the diagnosis. What is needed is reasonable adjustment for the individual if they are struggling with an area then the key thing is to find out why and what can be done to change it and not only for those who have a diagnosed problem.

I have no issue with a sensible demerit system but as well as being used for punishment when needed it also needs to be used to look for patterns and what can be done to stop the behaviour in the first place otherwise it’s pointless.

@Hungryharriet

"I have an undiagnosed autistic grandson, younger than your daughter appears to be, given that you are talking about A levels. To me his autism is very obvious, although I can't go into details on the internet. He attends a prestigious, extremely academic London private school. As far as I know (and I only know what his mum tells me), he has never been given my kind of sanction for being late to class or forgetting equipment. On the contrary, he he manages to organize himself very well.

Which serves to underline my point about autistic children (although the OP was talking about ADHD children), as long as they are not severely impaired, being capable of turning up to lessons on time, properly equipped. "
*
The fact that your grandson can turn up to lessons fully equipped and on time means absolutely nothing.* Every child is different and autism is not the same as ADHD which is not the same as dyspraxia etc. "Well he can do it so why can't you?" is just another stick used to beat those who are disabled or not NT. And you are such a classic example of someone who sees hidden disabilities as made up disabilities. I'm really glad you're no longer teaching.

When you have met one person with Autism you have met one person with autism. (Point is the same for every other disability too)

@Hungryharriet before diagnosis at age 15, my dd was given endless detentions, demerits etc for being disorganised, handing work in late, being distracted in lessons, losing books, not finishing work in class. Her difficulties were handled appallingly by her school. They simply did not know enough about autistic and ADHD girls to recognise what was going on. My dd was bullied on a daily basis in an insidious, low level way.

Until she was formally diagnosed, no reasonable adjustments were put in place in spite of seemingly endless requests by me. I offered my full support at home, if only they would keep me informed about deadlines, expectations, difficulties etc. all of which they refused to do, saying 'at year 9/10/11 we expect students to be able to manage these things themselves'

Once her diagnosis was received, the school quickly realised they had got things very wrong. Medication helped to improve my dd's focus and concentration in lessons, and her grades soared.

Her school is still pretty shit at supporting her emotional needs, and the daily meltdowns and shutdowns at home bear witness to this.

ADHD and autism can be completely intertwined. There is no way of separating them in my dd.

Just because your dgs is able to get himself to lessons on time has absolutely no bearing on whether autistic children in general can do this. SOME autistic children would be able to. SOME children with ADHD would be able to.

It is absolutely impossible to generalise, and this is why a rigid approach to anything, including demerits, will never work in schools without potentially damaging and disadvantaging children with additional needs.

Jellycatspypyjamas - thank you for your post - do you have any more information please or a link to the Glasgow model you refer to? I google it but I don't think I found it. thanks very much

This is so true, and SEN support is supposed to be needs led, not diagnosis led.

However, for those people who think this is all unnecessary pandering, the only thing they CAN'T argue with is the law (although
@Hungryharriet will even try and argue against that 😂) and this only offers protection to those with a diagnosed disability .

Also as I said earlier for this to happen as is should, there should be the time, staff, funding and support services available to do this, and as we all know there just Isn’t.

So while we have strict rules, especially pointless ones about what colour hair bobble you wear, or whether you track the teacher with your eyes at all times, or whatever other nonsense they dream up AND YES I KNOW THIS IS ONLY SOME SCHOOLS but its gradually trickling down especially under Torys they love this shit), a punitive behaviour management system, plus lack of support for SEND and possible SEND we have a perfect storm where children who wouldn't have struggled in mainstream a several years ago now can't cope. But no wants to talk about this apart from people directly affected, it's all figures in ears lalalala.