Does your children's high school give demit points...

[senneeds]

Our local high schools give demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc; if a child gets a certain number of points they get dentition.

I was wondering if other people's high school's do the same?

I ask because I was diagnosed with ADHD in my 50s... and I don't remember my high school giving out demerit points for these behaviours; it bothers me a lot that this happens in our local schools because a child being late, losing and forgetting things and not handing in homework are all ADHD traits.

A child can not get diagnosed as having ADHD unless they have evidence of these behaviours - so does that mean our schools are effectively punishing kids for their disabilities?

And while some schools might make allowances for the kids with ADHD and other SENs which have known executive function deficits...how about the kids who have not been diagnosed yet? It can't be great for their self esteem to be getting the message that how their brain works is so undesirable that they need to be punished or threatened with punishment.

I found a survey by ADHD UK who surveyed 800 teachers and found that 74% of these teachers did not recognise difficulty with organisation to be a symptom of ADHD and 78% did not recognise difficulty interacting socially to be a symptom of ADHD. adhduk.co.uk/teachers-and-adhd/

I also found this article about ADHD in the classroom thought provoking:
www.fintanoregan.com/fairness-isnt-giving-everybody-the-same-its-giving-everybody-what-they-need/

YANBU - yes my local high school gives demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc.

YABU - no my local high school does not give demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc.

The point being made is that in many schools reasonable adjustments are not being made.

Some schools simply don’t deal well with their pupils with SEN.

My elder DDs are 22. I had to have a properly robust chat with their school when DD2’s attendance (all days missed were for broken bones or hospital appointments) meant her class missed out on a cinema trip and she got ten tonnes of shit from it from her classmates. Our neighbours had the same problem, with the same school, last year after their child required a three week hospital stay.
They’ve learned nothing and kids are still losing out because of their refusal to learn

No, it’s not. The Op is stating that it’s unreasonable to expect it of pupils with SEN whilst making no adjustments for said SEN.

The vibe on this thread is actually that kids with SEN just have to suck it up for the greater good. Which is how threads like this always go on here.

im just waiting for the bingo card comment of how SEN kids actually damage the education of all the other kids

The point being made is that in many schools reasonable adjustments are not being made.

In a lot of cases of pupils with those SEN, reasonable adjustments aren't needed. I don't see this point being made and it needs to be. Making out that kids with SEN are basically incapable of things like getting to lessons on time and so they should be exempt from those expectations as a starting point of discussion is doing them a disservice.

The biggest disservice is to the children who do need the adjustments but aren't getting them. The ones who develop emotional or mental health problems or can no longer attend school because they aren't getting the adjustments and support they need, and the school can only operate a punitive approach.

That’s just whataboutery that comes up every time SEN comes up.

The OP is talking about children who are effectively being punished for their needs.

Not a single person has said that every single pupil should be exempt. The discussion was about pupils who are being discriminated against by these set things, but as always it’s been turned about into a discussion about pupils who are not in need.

Which is what always happens and allows schools (and workplaces) to continue ignoring the needs of those who are negatively impacted.

DSs school used to give demerits/referrals. A specific number per term and - something happened (parents called or punishment).

@Hungryharriet I'm sure you had a lovely teaching career, and I'm sure that you still hear from some of your former pupils.

However, I'm also sure that your teaching practices, attitude and knowledge are now completely outdated and would be damaging to pupils with either diagnosed or undiagnosed SEND.

You clearly have absolutely no idea about the state of SEND support in school and from outside agencies, the difficulty and time involved in getting a diagnosis, and then even more difficulty and time involved in trying to get an EHCP for a child.

Your comment that children with higher needs should be, or are in special schools is simply laughable. Do you have any idea of the shortage of special school places?

I have been a teacher for the last 22 years, a SENDCo and senior school leader. I also have a child with ADHD and Autism.

Your comments on this thread are unhelpful, patronising and completely ableist.

As a secondary school teacher at an outstanding school, I completely disagree with this. If we make reasonable adjustments for the (larger than you think, I suspect!) students who have needs, absolutely everybody prospers.

Making out that kids with SEN are basically incapable of things like getting to lessons on time and so they should be exempt from those expectations as a starting point of discussion is doing them a disservice.

My DS has additional support needs. He doesn’t need particular adjustments in school, he’s academic and very compliant and the structured school day suits him well. However, his class teacher in primary 2 had a very old school approach to class discipline which included a traffic light system - he couldn’t understand why his name was on the “amber” light, he did something perfectly acceptable to his primary 1 teacher and didn’t understand that different teachers expected different things from him. He didn’t know how to get back on “green” and after several weeks of trying to figure it out had a complete meltdown getting ready for school one morning. I had a 7 year old self harming at the thought of turning up to class.

The class teacher said she had explained the rules, but not in a way he could understand (“I don’t have time to go over every detail of what’s required with every child who might be hard of understanding”). After discussion with the head teacher, the traffic light system in the class was changed - and my DS was able to cope better because he wasn’t sat with a public, constant reminder that he wasn’t as good as his peer group.

Children may not need particular adjustments but fairly minor - in the schools eyes - ways of managing behaviour can cause huge levels of anxiety for kids who already have more demands made on them coping with the busyness of the school day. They’re already expected to do what everyone else is, to fit in, and get on with it which immediately places them under additional pressure even if they manage to comply with school expectations - that comes at a cost to them. I don’t think it’s too much to consider how the day to day school environment might be made more manageable for kids who have no choice but to be there.

Not a single person has said that every single pupil should be exempt.

But, as per OP, if we do not exempt every pupil, then we will be applying the system to those who do not have a diagnosis, yet do have those SEN. The logical conclusion is that to avoid this, no pupil should be expected to arrive at lessons on time.

That’s just bollocks.

Its the same kind of bollocks that’s used repeatedly to have no SEN adjustments in schools and workplaces.

My DD has ADHD. We copes with the timetable and time with the help of her friends. She marked down on reports for getting distracted, being off topic etc I don't worry about it too much as that's something she tries her best to overcome

Right, so we agree that a system of demerits for not meeting basic expectations in school is fine. We agree that reasonable adjustments should be made for pupils with SEN who struggle to meet those basic expectations, along with support in order to enable them to meet those expectations rather than just exempting them from them. We also agree that most children with SEN will be able to meet those expectations.

No, I don’t think we do agree.

I was talking to JustLyra but feel free to actually say what it is you disagree with.

The point - that is being deliberately missed - is that the reasonable adjustments are not being made

But do continue with your waffling attempts at derailing from the actual point of the thread 👍🏻

We agree that reasonable adjustments should be made.

That they are not in some schools is not a problem with the demerit system, but a problem with SEN support.

While you think most kids with SEN might be able to meet those expectations, that usually comes at a cost to the child which shows up in other areas of their lives. Demerit systems are deficit based, reinforcing what the child hasn’t don’t with no differentiation between unwilling or unable. Support for those with diagnosed SEN is nigh on impossible to obtain, those with undiagnosed needs have no chance.

I’d rather we looked towards models where nurture and a trauma informed approach were universally applied, such as the Glasgow model, than continually reinforce a deficit based approach.

@Littlefish
Yes, teaching methods change, but children don't. Today's approach of expecting all children with invisible disabilities to be somehow treated as extra special, with their every need catered for and adjustments made for them, does nothing at all to prepare them for adult life.

It's all very well during their school career to teach them that everyone else has to allow for their needs, but that doesn't translate into working life.

Most jobs want people who can be on time, be organized and be equipped with whatever they need to do their job. If children can't learn this while they're young, they will struggle later in life.

My comments reflect my opinions and are not designed to be patronizing, just truthful as I see it.

I also have a child with ADHD and Autism

How do these traits manifest themselves, and are they in mainstream education? If so, how does the school cater for them? Do you believe that they will be able to function in the world of work?

These are genuine questions because I am interested.

I’d rather we looked towards models where nurture and a trauma informed approach were universally applied

How does this get kids to lessons on time? I mean, we're talking about schools with, say, 1500 kids. Do you really think it's unreasonable to start with the expectation that kids can get to lessons on time?

Thats your opinion.

people are allowed different ones.

My son has ADHD. He manages to be on time for classes. He hates getting into trouble so it's a good motivation for him to try to be on time, not forget homework etc. He prioritises it. His brother on the other hand does not have ADHD and gets way more points because he doesn't really care about the teacher's opinion of him. But a missed break or detention is not welcome.

Most jobs want people who can be on time, be organized and be equipped with whatever they need to do their job. If children can't learn this while they're young, they will struggle later in life.

Thats ridiculous - children’s capacity for learning changes across their life course, therapeutic support and intervention can help as cognitive capacity changes, the ability to understand and put strategies in place to mitigate the impact of additional needs changes across time. Very often kids need time and space to learn - their capacity at 16 looks very different to their capacity at 12 and again at 19/20. We scaffold them until they have the ability to stand - for kids with disabilities that process takes longer and is more complex but it’s not impossible.

My DD is on average about 2 years behind her chronological age pretty much across the board. She is and will continue to catch up but expecting chronological age appropriate expectations of her simply sets her up to fail, she will get there but it will take much longer for her than for most other kids. In the meantime she won’t have a choice of a school setting that would give her the time she needs, so in the absence of specialist provision any mainstream setting will need to accommodate her.

So you do think that there is a problem with demerit systems for basic expectations?

How does this get kids to lessons on time? I mean, we're talking about schools with, say, 1500 kids. Do you really think it's unreasonable to start with the expectation that kids can get to lessons on time?

Do you really think a punitive approach to behaviour management is the best, or indeed only, way to work?