Does your children's high school give demit points...

[senneeds]

Our local high schools give demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc; if a child gets a certain number of points they get dentition.

I was wondering if other people's high school's do the same?

I ask because I was diagnosed with ADHD in my 50s... and I don't remember my high school giving out demerit points for these behaviours; it bothers me a lot that this happens in our local schools because a child being late, losing and forgetting things and not handing in homework are all ADHD traits.

A child can not get diagnosed as having ADHD unless they have evidence of these behaviours - so does that mean our schools are effectively punishing kids for their disabilities?

And while some schools might make allowances for the kids with ADHD and other SENs which have known executive function deficits...how about the kids who have not been diagnosed yet? It can't be great for their self esteem to be getting the message that how their brain works is so undesirable that they need to be punished or threatened with punishment.

I found a survey by ADHD UK who surveyed 800 teachers and found that 74% of these teachers did not recognise difficulty with organisation to be a symptom of ADHD and 78% did not recognise difficulty interacting socially to be a symptom of ADHD. adhduk.co.uk/teachers-and-adhd/

I also found this article about ADHD in the classroom thought provoking:
www.fintanoregan.com/fairness-isnt-giving-everybody-the-same-its-giving-everybody-what-they-need/

YANBU - yes my local high school gives demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc.

YABU - no my local high school does not give demerit points to kids who are late, have lost or forgotten things, have not handed in homework etc.

Are you not able to understand that some kids struggle with timekeeping and organisation even though they aren't toddlers? For some they will need support / strategies with this. They aren't doing it on purpose FFS.

A good school will ensure that extra needs are catered for in their points system

Sadly a lot of schools are very poor when it comes to SEN. Which leads to children being punished for things outwith their control.

SEN support is usually delivered by TAs not teachers.

@josephjohnson Are you able to suggest just what kind of support these children need, and who should give it? Teachers will be in their classroom waiting for the class to arrive. At secondary school age, it's not too big a demand that children can get themselves to class. It doesn't take much effort.

As for 'not doing it on purpose,' I suppose you think that children never stop to chat with their mates when they are getting their things from a locker. If they are late to lessons I very much doubt that they 'can't help it.'

It's fairly easy to see you have not been a teacher.

My school uses class charts and we can award positive and negative points for loads of things. It’s really helpful because parents get more communication from school about day to day issues and it’s helps to give a clearer picture of what’s going on.

No I'm not a teacher but I am a parent of a child with ADHD who also has ADHD herself.
If you're a teacher, what do you suggest? Because just telling my child to organise themselves better, not get distracted and to cure themselves of time blindness really isn't going to cut it I'm afraid.

@josephjohnson what techniques are you developing for them to manage their time outside school? Can these not be applied inside school, eg alarm reminders?

We are working on strategies and working with the school to support them, that's the key thing. My point earlier wasn't specifically me saying my child is struggling, though, it was more about how there's an assumption that kids will have learned these skills by 11.
Child A has cerebral palsy and walks with a frame, they take more time to get around, collect things etc because of their physical disability.
Child B has ADHD (or dyslexia, is not NT), they take more time to get around as they are distractible, tend to leave books / bags behind so need to go and collect them.

Both children have a disability that impacts the way they manage the school day. But i don't think anyone would be saying child A just needs to walk more quickly and be more coordinated as they "aren't a toddler", would they?

Both children have a disability that impacts the way they manage the school day. But i don't think anyone would be saying child A just needs to walk more quickly and be more coordinated as they "aren't a toddler", would they?

@Hungryharriet would

It can be a big demand for some children especially if they are new to secondary school so haven’t learnt the ways yet.

a good school will have things in place to help all pupils at transition points to help things keep moving smoothly. Even using older students to help monitor the corridors and keep things moving.

it really shouldn’t be a big ask for a school to have support in place at such a basic level.

ds has an ehcp which includes in it how transitions between lessons will work but there will be plenty of other children who don’t have an ehcp which will still need the extra support

This has gone from a thread about giving demerits, to one about support for children with disabilities.

Those with disabilities which entitle them to an ECHP obviously need support and get it in the form of 1 to 1 with a TA.

The OP was suggesting that children with disabilities such as ADHD, autism or dyslexia should not be given demerits.

You can't have one rule for some children and another rule for others. If a child is so severely impacted by their ADHD, autism or dyslexia that they can't get to lessons on time with the correct equipment, they probably shouldn't be in mainstream education.

You CAN have one rule for some children and another rule for others 🙄This is called a reasonable adjustment, and these are enshrined in the Equality act. Failure to make reasonable adjustments leave schools wide open for a disability discrimination claim.

I can't tell if you are just ignorant @Hungryharriet or an ableist troll. I certainly don't believe you're a teacher in a UK mainstream, because I'm pretty sure the majority are aware of the many reasonable adjustments made for disabled children 🙄

You can't have one rule for some children and another rule for others. If a child is so severely impacted by their ADHD, autism or dyslexia that they can't get to lessons on time with the correct equipment, they probably shouldn't be in mainstream education.

That would be wonderful if there were sufficient places for kids with additional support needs. Kids who really need the additional framework a specialist placement would give them can’t get a place, provision for mild to moderate learning needs is appalling - so they are placed in a mainstream setting and expected to get on with it. My DD has complex additional needs and it’s known that a mainstream setting will be wholly unsuitable for her - but she could still find herself in a mainstream setting if there is no specialist place available.

Thats unfair to her, and unfair to the staff who will be teaching her because the school environment isn’t set up to meet her needs. Punishing her for things outside of her control (she struggles with executive functioning on all levels) isn’t fair to her.

While additional needs provision is so poor, schools need to be run to meet the needs of all pupils, as education is a universal service. Kids can’t opt out of school, and for some kids mainstream school is a pretty hostile environment. Giving demerits is indeed lazy teaching and impacts kids who have no choice but to attend an unsuitable placement with minimal support.

How do you suggest teachers know which children have an invisible disability?

You appear to be assuming a lot about me, without actually knowing me.

Your very rude assumption that I am ignorant or a troll is entirely mistaken. I am a retired teacher, who taught in many mainstream private and state schools for over 20 years.

During my time in teaching, I never came across so many children who nowadays appear to have a disability. I can think of two, out of the many hundreds of children I taught, who might today be diagnosed with ADHD, and none whom I would have considered autistic.

(And you needn't bother coming back to say you're glad I don't teach currently - I've heard it before, and I was actually an excellent teacher, still in touch with many of my former pupils and their parents).

Those with disabilities which should entitle them to an ECHP obviously need support and should get it in the form of 1 to 1 with a TA.

The OP was suggesting that children with disabilities such as ADHD, autism or dyslexia should not be given demerits for things that are purely down to their disabilities. It’s called reasonable adjustments.

This is also fucking hilarious “If a child is so severely impacted by their ADHD, autism or dyslexia that they can't get to lessons on time with the correct equipment, they probably shouldn't be in mainstream education.“ considering the fight people have whose children need specialist provision. My youngest is profoundly disabled. Can’t (and won’t) be able to read or write, can’t communicate, needs 1-1 care 24/7 and I still had to fight for her not to be allocated our local school with zero provision.

Hungryharriet I very clearly said after I wrote my OP I was influenced by people's responses to recognise the importance of keeping some sort of record of these behaviours - isn't this the point of posting - to get the view of others to develop evolve an opinion?

What I do believe though is these kids should not be punished for showing the traits of their disabilities - what I don't get though is why you would think giving them detention is a better option over discussing with their teacher a way forward to help them improve these behaviours.

In fact I don't think any kids should be punished for executive function behaviours because all kids develop their brains at different times - records should be taken of behaviours and they should be having discussions with the parents and school how these can be improved.

These are secondary age children, not toddlers.

Oddly enough children don’t grow out of things like autism, ADHD and dyslexia, or indeed trauma related processing difficulties. They need more time to develop strategies that will see them cope in adulthood - they can’t learn them at the same pace as children not so affected, and can’t learn them in the same way.

The idea that if a 12 year old can’t cope with multiple class changes, multiple changes in teachers, multiple changes in homework expectations and equipment needs (while also actively learning the curriculum) means they won’t cope with working life as an adult is ridiculous.

I can’t think of a time in my working life where every 50 minutes the task I’m doing, the place I’m doing it, the equipment I need, the language I’m speaking and the person leading the activity changes across the day 5 days per week. The strategies needed to cope in mainstream high school are very different to those needed to cope with adult working life - there are no comparisons really with how most adults live their lives.

Hungryharriet I very clearly said after I wrote my OP I was influenced by people's responses to recognise the importance of keeping some sort of record of these behaviours - isn't this the point of posting - to get the view of others to develop evolve an opinion?

What I do believe though is these kids should not be punished for showing the traits of their disabilities - what I don't get though is why you would think giving them detention is a better option over discussing with their teacher a way forward to help them improve these behaviours.

In fact I don't think any kids should be punished for executive function behaviours because all kids develop their brains at different times - records should be taken of behaviours and they should be having discussions with the parents and school how these can be improved.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. My point is that schools exist primarily to teach children. In order to do that effectively, children need to be in class, with the correct equipment. It's incredibly disruptive to have children walking in five minutes after a lesson has started, and unless teachers are strict about giving demerits or détentions, lateness would get out of control, with a resulting decline in education, which benefits no-one.

Teachers are extremely busy people as I'm sure you are aware. In an ideal world, they would have time to sit and talk to every student who is late for a lesson, record all these events and talk them over with the parents. In practice, this is not possible and children need to learn to be organized - all children, not just those who find it easy.

I have to say, the vast, vast majority of students in secondary school manage to get to lessons on time, if this is the expectation. The ones who don't are generally pissing about in the toilets with their mates. The vast majority have their equipment, or the ability to borrow from a mate. The idea that no kids with autism, dyspraxia, ADHD or other SEN can manage to achieve these basic expectations (some with more parental support than others) just isn't borne out by my daily experience. Yes, some have more severe SEN and need more in-school support or reasonable adjustments.

You'd think, from this thread, that secondary schools are filled with kids miserably accruing demerits because they are late to every lesson and never have a pen because this is too much for them to manage and also that no one has ever talked to them about this or supported them with strategies. That's just not true.

Good schools certainly make the time to help and support their pupils beyond just the academics. It is very much in teachers best interests to help with these small things in order to keep the classroom a calmer place.

a one size fits all approach doesn’t work.

Thank you. I'm so glad I 'm not the only one who thinks this.

You'd think, from this thread, that secondary schools are filled with kids miserably accruing demerits because they are late to every lesson and never have a pen because this is too much for them to manage and also that no one has ever talked to them about this or supported them with strategies. That's just not true

Well my DC was one such child, and I know of one other from the same school. Of course she wasn't late to EVERY lesson, and never forgot a pen, let's not talk extremes just to make your point 🙄 But even if she was late to one lesson a day, the points soon added up.

And even if a small minority of children that are struggling, it still needs to be addressed. Because I don't believe ANY child should develop mental health problems due to their experience at school. AND I'm not saying it was demerits or detentions gave my DD the problems. It was a death of a thousand cuts, this was just one thing out of many that added to school becoming too unmanageable for her. Some of these things couldn't been helped, but many could.

The idea that no kids with autism, dyspraxia, ADHD or other SEN can manage to achieve these basic expectations (some with more parental support than others) just isn't borne out by my daily experience. Yes, some have more severe SEN and need more in-school support or reasonable adjustments.

Not one single person has said that no kids with those SEN can manage it. Not one.

Well my DC was one such child, and I know of one other from the same school.

Right, so let's not extrapolate from two DC and one school to all DC and all schools.

And even if a small minority of children that are struggling, it still needs to be addressed.

Yes, of course children who are struggling with organisation or punctuality should be flagged and supported. The easiest way to flag this, by the way, is by logging that behaviour across lessons and spotting patterns.

Kids who are pissing around in the corridors with their mates instead of going to lessons need some sort of system where this can be logged and then sanctioned.

Kids who can't be arsed to bring basic equipment need this logging and then sanctioning.

Kids who can't be arsed to do homework, not because they struggle with organisation but because they spend all evening on FIFA or whatever, need this logging and then sanctioning.

Not one single person has said that no kids with those SEN can manage it.

And yet the vibe on this thread is that having it as a basic expectation in schools is unreasonable, because of children with those SEN.