To think someone isn’t owed an organ from a sibling?

[NellesVilla]

I’ve known a few people- weirdly- that have given/received kidneys from other family members over the years.

I think that it is incredibly kind and selfless to do this for another person in need, but think that there’s so much guilt involved and that one person doesn’t owe a kidney, particularly if the recipient is not their own offspring.

I know 2 x people; basics as follows:-

• R for recipient and D for donor/possible donor. They are siblings, but not close siblings or even really in touch.
• R is on dialysis and is hoping to get a new kidney in the next year or so.
• D- a sibling- not a close sibling, has been cited as a possible match. The parents are not able to donate and are hoping that D will “come good”.
• D thinks that R should offer the kidney like it’s a sweet and that it’s nothing. Also, that is not needed by R. R also isn’t interested in any sort of relationship with D and is happy to take the organ and run.
• D is- regardless of the relationship- v sympathetic towards this plight- but couldn’t be less interested in risking their life for someone who doesn’t give a fig about them.
• Sadly, R has kids. D doesn’t but may do so in the future.
• Everyone thinks “how nice” it would be for R to help their sibling, but wouldn’t dream of offering themselves- friends, family etc.
• Lastly the most interesting fact is, that D’s partner-father to the kids- is also not keen on being tested and has made up every excuse/reason under the sun to avoid being so. The partner feels that it would be nice for R to help out their sibling- obviously!!

I think the same rules apply as with lending money to family. Only lend what you're prepared to not get back, and be prepared for what you lend to be used in a way you just don't approve of.

You can't put a condition on an organ - once it's gone, you ain't getting it back, and the recipient could lead an unhealthy lifestyle that means that the organ won't last long.

I'm afraid I just couldn't. I'd be full of resentment if someone took my kidney and they contributed to it being rejected. But as I've said, it's a two-way thing. I also wouldn't accept a living donation as I think it's too big an ask from someone, even if they offer freely.

I do get this @rarelyontime but I'd just like to say that I think the majority of organ recipients are grateful beyond words to donors – I don't know what percentage of recipients don't make any efforts to look after themselves, but DH and I certainly haven't come across that many at all during his 30+ years of kidney disease. For the vast majority, kidney disease is just a condition they have, they are no more to blame for it than people who develop cancer or MS, for example.

Well no one ever owes anyone anything

But thankfully in a pleasant society people do things for others because they're decent human beings who care.

My sibling would never owe me an organ

But if they refused they'd have shown themselves as someone who doesn't care if I live or die

And that attitude would then be returned in favour

But if they refused they'd have shown themselves as someone who doesn't care if I live or die

that’s a very black and white way of looking at it, and I think it’s quite unfair.

there’s a lot of nuance to it. For example, I would absolutely care if my sibling lived or died and it would cause me a lot
of emotional torment if faced with the situation where I had to decide whether or not I gave them my kidney. But I have my children to factor in to the equation and they will always come first (eg what if they need it at some point? What if I die in surgery etc). The same way I’d expect my siblings to put their children before me in similar circumstances. I could never be resentful of that.

also - there’s a legitimate fear that your own health (as donor) starts to deteriorate, whether related to the donation or not. It’s ok to want to keep yourself alive and healthy.

it’s just not as simple as saying “you didn’t give me your kidney and therefore you don’t care if I die”

And they should do those things freely and without ‘moral’ coercion.

If I chose to donate an organ it would not be because it was expected of me, or because I was in fear of moral condemnation.

‘and that attitude would then be returned in favour’ - invariably means you’d cut them off and bless them with a quiet life, free from being hectored about ponying up organs. I’m not sure why that would be considered a dire consequence when i’d consider that as being threatened with a good time.

@whumpthereitis

Hardly moral coercion

Thankfully my family give a shit so this wouldn't be an issue, but I don't think too highly of those who would refuse to give a life saving organ to a member of their own family.

Especially 'just in case' someone more deserving needed it in future

The thing is, even if they did do everything perfectly, you still couldn't guarantee the organ wouldn't be rejected. In which case, I wouldn't be angry at the recipient, I'd just be generally angry at the world. I'd still have a lot of negative emotions to deal with, that I might never come to terms with.

You can't guarantee the recipient would live a long life. You can't guarantee I wouldn't have any complications. The only fact you could guarantee would be that I'd be a kidney down.

As someone who is really risk adverse, it just doesn't sit well with me.

Maybe I'm selfish hoarding all of my body parts, but at least I'm honest about it. I think it's much worse to pretend you would donate an organ but then back out if that scenario became a reality rather than a hypothetical.

Live donation? I would do anything for love, but I won't do that.

I think people who do consent to live donation - especially when it's not even for a loved one - are incredible people, and I just don't understand how they can be that selfless and kind. They're better humans than I am.

‘If you don’t give me an organ, you’re a terrible person’ (or words to that effect) is moral coercion.

and most people would consider their children to be ‘more deserving’ than a sibling, although no one actually ‘deserves’ someone else’s organs.

But would you donate it to a family member who doesn't give a shit about you? One who won't give a shit about you afterwards either.

@whumpthereitis

And the likelihood of both a sibling and your child needing your singular organ?

Very low

Again, not moral coercion, it would never be said but would be felt after the fact.

I absolutely would for my sister. But we get on very well. And there are also a handful of others I'd give one too. But not if I was estranged I don't think,

Oh please, such an attitude would be conveyed, either verbally or in actions. No one should feel compelled to give up organs, ever. It should only be a choice freely made.

Their children may not need it, no. That doesn’t mean they have a duty to give it to their siblings, however. Some people may decide to keep their kidney solely because they want to keep their kidney. That’s entirely reasonable too.

It’s wild what people think their siblings owe them. I don’t think being cut out by someone with such entitlement should worry anyone, tbh. If I ever found myself being faced with that I would actively encourage them to think as badly of me as they liked, far away from me.

Wouldn't the recipient be in hospital longer than the donor though?!

@whumpthereitis

I never said it was a duty or anything of the sort

Most don't do nice things out of duty

Then no one should expect a sibling to give them an organ, or consider it ‘not nice’ if they choose not to 🤷🏻‍♀️

I scarcely think undergoing a rather serious operation, and literally giving someone a kidney rates merely as 'doing a nice thing'! It's not like taking in someone's parcel, or making sure they're stocked up with milk and bread upon their return. . .

When it comes to family it is a general nice thing

There have been a could of threads about this over the years.

One I remember was a single mother (father not in the picture at all) being heavily pressured to donate by her elder sister and husband.

The sisters prior to the elders illness had not been particularly close.

The OP wanted to be "a good person" but was understandably wary of the risks, her ability to recuperate and still look after her child and obviously what would happen to her child in the worst case scenario.

The abuse she received from her sister and husband was really awful.

Upshot she got a lot of support from the thread telling her not to do it as her priority was to her child and that she could tell the transplant team who could tell the sister she was not a suitable donor without revealing the reason why.

Inherently it's a massive thing to do for someone and it's perfectly reasonable to say no.

Personally I'd do it for DC but no one else, because frankly the risk becomes irrelevant to me because I'd no want to live in a world without them (or them in pain) knowing I could do something about it.

However, I'd not risk the pain of my child being motherless (or having long term complications) for anyone else.

When it comes to family it is a general nice thing

In your opinion. My opinion is that your opinion is a load of utter codswallop.

This isn't hypothetical in my family. Two of my sisters had severe kidney issues, one to the point that it was life threatening as a child.

My two children were both diagnosed with kidney reflux at birth, and had to be on antibiotics daily until the ages of three and five respectively.

No, I would not step up to give my sister a kidney. Particularly not if she rather casually regarded it as just the nice sort of thing family members do. Yes, I reserve my kidneys (which aren't too great either) for my daughters. Because for me, that's the nice sort of thing parents do for their children, who they are perfectly entitled to put first over and above their siblings.

And quite frankly, I'd be more than happy for said sibling to get in a snit with me for not gladly handing my body organ over to them on demand and a silver platter, and never speak to me again. Because I'd be in a snit with them thinking they were owed it as of right, because that's the sort of nice thing you do for family.

Family. The most guilt laden, and manipulated/manipulative word in the English dictionary, I sometimes think. The shit you're supposed to do and put up with, all in the name of 'faaaaaaaaamily'.

I agree with you - it's way beyond doing a nice thing....

There is a reason we have two kidneys. The fact we can survive with one doesn't mean that state is optimal.

In addition as a pp noted a transplant isn't a cure, it's a treatment and depending on the age of the recipient future transplants may be needed.

Just how many family members are expected hand over an organ?

What are the ramifications on family dynamics if it fails and the recipient is no better off but the donors health is compromised?

Think of cases where the donors illness is a cause or exacerbated by lifestyle choices. How do people think family relationships will pan out if they treat a donor kidney no better than they did their own?

My ex is on transplant list for a kidney, has been pressuring our child to get tested to see if they are a match. Child is refusing. Child is an adult btw.

How anyone can ask that of another person is beyond me.

In RL I couldn't do this, I have 2 kidneys but one is badly scarred and doesn't work fully so I am guessing I couldn't do it. However I can't imagine not doing it for my sibling if I could, but then we are a close family.

If we weren't then I probably wouldn't, it's an absolutely massive thing to do!

I’m actually on dialysis as I type this! I hope to be on the transplant list fairly soon. The obvious potential living donor would be DB who I have not thoroughly discussed it with yet. If he agreed to be tested I would be for ever grateful but I would never expect or demand it. We have no other siblings and both parents are dead. Neither of us has DC which I do appreciate would make a difference.

How anyone can refuse is beyond me

How a child can willingly say I'd rather my father die than give an organ