AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

There is still mobility if they work hard in school. That is key. They can be working class, but there's no excuse for not getting 5 GCSEs and A Levels. They don't cost anything.

If they don't want to go to uni, fine, there are routes into work without it, but they'll have to do the research and find those access courses, internships and training schemes. Again, the rewards come to those who put the work in.

I was involved in tech courses getting people into roles without degrees. It was still overwhelmingly middle class. We had some working class students, and they were great and committed, but they did all share similar stories that their families had offered no help, guidance or support at all. They didn't know how. So they have to be very self driven and motivated to get out of the rut on their own.

No one's going to inherit property from the middle class. It gets sold to pay for care fees.

The housing crisis is crippling lower earners. It is. Can't get a deposit from family, can't stay with family until you've saved, don't earn enough to beat the system.

I agree that social mobility is actively discouraged in the UK.

Goldman Sachs agrees with you BTW www.goldmansachs.com/insights/pages/from-briefings-07-april-2022.html

Why are you assuming that a child with working class parents wouldnt get a degree

Why are you assuming that jobs that are traditional working class jobs like cab driver, train driver, bus driver, nurse, plumber, brickie, electrician, car mechanic etc etc are low paid jobs, they're not.

Social mobility basically stopped when the 11+ and the opportunity for grammar school education was removed. Statistics prove that. A socialist government attempt to level up lead to the inability of the working class to better itself.
successive governments have pushed to help minorities, which now means that white working class makes are the least likely to go to university...the countries largest demographic is effectively excluded from social movement

Why can’t they get degrees?

Because some come from inadequate households

Its true that white working class boys are least likely to succeed at schools overall.

But I often wonder what is meant by 'working class', people seem to use this interchangeably with families who are generationally unemployed or troubled families, they are not necessarily interchangeable.

Im from a working class family, I dont know what Im now considered as I got a degree, and am a professional in public services now. My sister didnt get a degree but is also in public services and also earns an ok wage.

My parents left school at 15 as they did in those days, no qualifications but got jobs at the time.

I think it's quite ignorant to say "there's no excuse not to work hard in school", that kind of comment always seems to come from people who had middle class upbringings and don't understand the limitations of growing up poor.

There are a multitude of reasons why children from deprived backgrounds perform poorly in school. For example "poverty mentality" is embedded very deep in a lot of working class communities, and a child growing up in that environment will copy their family/community (which is why I left school at 16 with no qualifications).

YANBU.

Its getting more difficult by the day.

Even if they go to university they will be saddled with huge debts that will make it really difficult to save for a deposit. Although the loan doesnt count as debt in the normal sense, depending on how much you earn a huge chunk is taken out of your post tax pay. It affects the size of the mortgage you can get and the size of your mortgage payments.

I grew up in a council house and still got a first class degree 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's called hard work and effort. Kids in this country have amazing opportunities for social mobility compared to less economically developed countries where poor kids don't even get to go to school.

This country is all about jobs for the boys look at Johnson. It’s not about how clever you are. It’s all about did you go to the right school and who your parents are.
Because the ConParty have run the country into the ground there are far fewer opportunities. Why waste thousands on a uni qualification when at the end you can only get a job 20k

@MidnightMeltdown That's good for you but I hope you understand that you're the exception.

Social mobility is overrated.

This such a typical mumsnet response,some kids however hard they work will never get 5 GCSE,s and Alevels bit everybody is academic it shouldn't just be about Alevels and university.

Grammar schools were always filled with mostly middle class kids and secondary moderns left most kids without any qualifications. Several counties still have grammar system and it still does little for social mobility.

My parents both went to grammar in the late 60s and neither went to uni, the idea that there was more massive mobility in the 60s is a bit of a myth I think.

What has happened in my family, and I imagine many others has been a gradual improvement in education attainment and prospects over several generations. My grandmothers left school at 15, my mother did A-levels and eventually an OU degree in her 30s, I went to uni at 18. I think education is more important for female prospects. My brother left school at 16 and earns good money now in IT.

I think that for men trades still pay well and offer a route to financial security without a degree, far more apprenticeship opportunities that pay well in male dominated careers.

Housing is a huge issue and does make an enormous difference having family help to get on the property ladder.

Children can do well in education regardless of background if they value it and have the aptitude. For those with disabilities however, who just can’t, there’s far to little state support throughout their lifetime, I hate this idea that clever, hardworking people should be entitled to secure stable housing, everyone should be able to get a decent standard of living.

Very few jobs are “dead end”, that’s an inaccurate - and pretty snobby - view: every job teaches you transferable skills which an able, committed, switched on young person can use to build their career.

I started out in a basic admin role and have worked up to become a Company Secretary in financial services, an enormously senior role. My younger brother left school without completing his A Levels, took on full time hours at the supermarket he’d had a Saturday job at and began to get recognition from management for his excellent customer service and innovation with merchandising; he’s now a regional manager for that supermarket chain. In a previous role I was responsible for interviewing young people coming to us on business support apprenticeships. They were almost invariably from working class backgrounds but so so switched on and capable, and determined to progress.

Even without a degree, there are still opportunities out there for young people from less affluent backgrounds, and they aren’t necessarily “traditional working class” manual roles either.

It's because the global business infiltrated the left and decided to focus on IDPOL instead of class analysis, it was so called Labour who wanted everyone to go to uni (to massarge the unemployment figures), it was so called labour who decided to let big business of the hook by introducing WTC and the like instead of making buisiness pay (but at the time it was considered a right wing ideolgy of the slippery slope and more money means inflation)

The cons aren't better, but there is no real class analysis going on, if it was any other demographic other than white working class boys being left behind in education it would be national outcry, there is a reason why the red wall fallen (and it is far more nuanced then 'muh right wing media smear') and there is a reason why apparently life long labour supporters who came from a miners family where openly supporting the neolib idea of big banks and industry wanting cheap access to employees and complaining who would serve them coffee or pick thier veg.

There is going to be a realignment of politics over the next few years, the past few years has shown the 'I'm alright jack' isn't just a right wing attribute.

Student loans aren’t really debt, they’re a graduate tax that get written off after you’ve paid a certain amount or reach a certain age, they don’t impact mortgage applications like other loans.

I know loads of teenagers from my very WC area have gone to university. What do you mean by WC? If not university loads have gone on to do vocational subjects at college.

Err, and plenty of WC parents do offer support and encouragement to their children. We are not all thickos who laze around all day watching daytime TV.

The people I went to school with who got themselves a trade or ended up working on the rigs have done much better for themselves than any of the clever kids with degrees etc . I would say that’s true for my area as a whole the people I know who stay in nice big houses in good parts of town are roofers,plumbers,joiners etc . Although these professions are so male dominated :(

@ComtesseDeSpair "I started out in a basic admin role and have worked up to become a Company Secretary in financial services, an enormously senior role."

Yes, that's similar to what I did. However it was a long time ago, and I'm talking about opportunities to work your way up now.

On the face of it yes all kids in this country have the same chance to work hard at school and get GCSEs/Alevels/degree etc but you are assuming a level playing field.

some children
don’t get a cooked meal apart from what they get at school
have to share a room or even a bed with multiple siblings
have parents who are addicts - drugs or alcohol or gambling etc
have parents who are abusive
have to work in the family business to help out
habe to look after younger siblings or do all the household chores
have parents who don’t care or actively discourage them from working hard at school eg take the mick and call them names for being brainy
have illiterate parents who don’t have the skills to help them with homework etc

jist one of the above drastically reduces a child ability to concentrate and do well at school, lots of kids have to deal with multiple of the above. It’s naive to think that children in the above circumstances can keep up with middle class children who have thier own room and computer, warm food and no responsibilities.
some children do get lucky, they have a family member or a teacher who looks out for them and encourages them and do manage to NBC limb out of the pigeon hole that they are in. But many don’t and it’s no fault of thier own, they are victims of circumstance.

They are not normal WC families though.

It wasn’t a long time ago. Nor was the example of my brother: he’s 24. And my experiences of interviewing young working class people for apprenticeships was within the last five years.

I was a free school meals child whose parents were both in and out of work and had no money. I now have a PhD and my husband and have a household income of around £115k.

BUT I am aware I'm an exception and that I have had a lot of luck, along with hard work. Social mobility is NOT nearly impossible for working class children to achieve. BUT it is very hard, and the dice is loaded against many from the very start. I'm comparing the upbringing I'm giving my children now (okay they're only toddlers at the moment) to the one I had myself and there's no comparison.

I have researched grammar schools and they are hugely detrimental to social mobility overall.