AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

Just to clarify on what I meant by working class (because people seem to be getting personally offended), I'm referring to deprived, disadvantaged children from inadequate households and communities. Not necessarily "normal" working class families, however all working class children do have limitations to an extent.

Also, working class is a huge spectrum, and there are families under that umbrella term with extremely different circumstances.

Ah - cross posted!

So are you referring to pupils on free school meals? Pupils whose parents need to claim benefits? Pupil Premium pupils?

inadequate households is a problematic term... inadequate in what way? I don't see my household as a child as 'inadequate' but I certainly came under the definition of 'deprived' in any research papers!

If your bright and work hard there’s no reason why anyone can’t go to uni.

some might find it really hard financially as me and my sister did, living off smash. But if your prepared to work pt ( I did nights in a factory) and go without for three years why not?

it’s the debt that scaring off my ds currently. We’re on a one very low salary and if he took a jump of faith he could get into a RG uni. Because he is naturally, effortlessly smart. Kids like him are born into any class.

I actually think there are more opportunities. Maybe its the school I went to but when I was 18 it was university or bust. There are so many alternatives now, like apprenticeships, and they are in loads of fields not just construction and hairdressing as it used to be.

I agree with the OP. There used to be social mobility but today it is very much diminished. People that cannot see this need to check their privilege.

BrieAndChilli · Today 21:18

*On the face of it yes all kids in this country have the same chance to work hard at school and get GCSEs/Alevels/degree etc but you are assuming a level playing field.

some children
don’t get a cooked meal apart from what they get at school
have to share a room or even a bed with multiple siblings
have parents who are addicts - drugs or alcohol or gambling etc
have parents who are abusive
have to work in the family business to help out
habe to look after younger siblings or do all the household chores
have parents who don’t care or actively discourage them from working hard at school eg take the mick and call them names for being brainy
have illiterate parents who don’t have the skills to help them with homework etc

jist one of the above drastically reduces a child ability to concentrate and do well at school, lots of kids have to deal with multiple of the above. It’s naive to think that children in the above circumstances can keep up with middle class children who have thier own room and computer, warm food and no responsibilities.
some children do get lucky, they have a family member or a teacher who looks out for them and encourages them and do manage to NBC limb out of the pigeon hole that they are in. But many don’t and it’s no fault of thier own, they are victims of circumstance.*

@BrieAndChilli yep - this is really well put.

@BrieAndChilli @wonderstuff @x2boys
Completely agree with you all. So many different factors that I didn't even think of.

Here's a cartoon I sometimes share with the (priveliged private school) pupils I teach: www.boredpanda.com/privilege-explanation-comic-strip-on-a-plate-toby-morris/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

I don’t agree that having more grad entry roles is inconsistent with social mobility. I worked tremendously hard to get into a good university, but the only obstacle was willingness to work hard. The amount of financial and other support available ensured that money was no obstacle.

Jesus, I hate threads like this.
It is such a uniquely British thing that anyone not middle ‘class’ or above has an enormous chip in their shoulder about social mobility.

There are many ways ‘up’. There are more ways through now to gain a degree. There are more good quality apprenticeships. Many roles have on the job industry qualifications which allow you to advance.

Our student finance system is generous and flexible ( @Horcruxe needs to do a bit more research on how it works). Anyone who didn’t gain GCSEs in English and Math can do it for free as an adult. There’s more funding available for Level 3 courses now- which doesn’t expire at age 19.

I used to drop one of my children off at his very privileged friend’s house. It was a dead end road so had to do a three point turn in front of the biggest house on the street ( which belonged to a plumber).

Yes, it is hard to get to Oxford or Cambridge, but this isn’t the 1700’s , there are numerous ways to ‘ move up’
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Because it’s really really expensive.
yes you have loans etc but you have to have. Someone who understands the system.

i didn’t go to Uni, couldn’t afford it

Absolutely. I knew the "just work hard in school" brigade would come out though 😂

I come from a very working class background which is quite obvious when you chat to me. I never deny it and don’t hide it in any way despite being in an mc post. There is no doubt whatsoever that I am treated very differently because of it.

I have a degree and a masters but that means nothing to the people I work for, I am viewed as an idiot and regularly told so.

If you have a completely inadequate upbringing in terms of very poor parenting, chaotic home life, domestic violence, time spent in care, drugs, mental health crisis etc then I'm not sure much as changed - kids from those background very rarely saw significant levels of social mobility in the past either.

There are still fairly well paid jobs that don't require a degree but do require some years of study and poorly paid work experience before qualification - eg electrician, precision welding, nuclear technician, deep sea diver and many other skilled trades.
But the same barriers face a kid from a chaotic background trying to enter those non-degree jobs as well. You still need a decent level of maths, English, scientific knowledge as well as social and study skills that are hard to pick up in a chaotic household.

Good lord. That’s not working class it’s under class. Working class is not deprived disadvantaged children from inadequate households.

I can’t believe you even wrote that.

But the children of abusive / neglectful / illiterate / addicted parents who actively discourage education and hard work have never historically had brilliant social mobility prospects, as a group. Whilst there will obviously have been individual success stories, frequently the young men just overwhelmingly ended up in jobs like labouring, mining or factory production lines (if they didn’t end up in prison first); the young women tended to have babies early and their employment wasn’t of particular consideration. Greater availability of social housing, and the tendency for it to be estate-based, meant that they a) found it easier to balance their budget and b) largely lived out of sight of the middle classes.

Then change job,

Yes. I hate these threads too. They are usually full of MC parents stating that WC parents don't care about their kids education and assuming doing things the MC way is the only way.

Even if you look at film and tv, it seems the middle and upper classes have firmly taken over. Look at the background of the majority of British film stars and they nearly all had a private education. Sport too, football is an exception but even there, countless academies and businesses are taking over costing a lot more than the traditional grass roots clubs.

Unfortunately for you this one isn’t. Read the thread.

Even if you do manage to follow the traditional path of "do well at school - get degree/s - get office job" then it's housing that is the next big hurdle to social mobility.

DH and I were lucky we met at university and rented together from age 24 but it's tough if you are single and renting.

YABU.

@ComtesseDeSpair we currently employ many young lads like the ones you describe as labourers. Some of them are now earning £800 a week net which is probably more than the majority of 21yos with degrees and student debt. They’re learning the trade on the job and many of them, on todays prices, will be earning upwards of £1,600 a week nett when they’ve done so. There are many jobs where you can out earn those with degrees by a lot!

I’m in exactly the same position as you. I do still consider myself working class as that’s my routes, but I earn over average london salary and I guess my position aligns more with Tory than labour, but I could never bring myself to be a Tory! See I always consider working class people to be labour voters, I am beginning to wonder as where I grew up labour only just scraped in last election. Makes me wonder what on Earth the local voters think a Tory MP will do for them

@Fushiadreams Why should she have to change career that she's worked hard for many years for? What an odd comment.
Surely you can recognize it's not as easy as that.