AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

I am very serious. Poverty can give you disadvantages. It doesn't take away aspiration or intellect.

One of my favourite episodes of "Gary's Economics" Youtube channel is where he explains that an important reason for his success (retired a multi-millionaire after six years working) was because he went to a grammar school. But, not because of what they taught him, but because he met people there from a completely different background. He was from a poor East London family, it was the parents of his Indian friends who explained what the good jobs were, and what he needed to study to get them.

Getting Top Jobs. Why top jobs go to rich kids.

But it takes away opportunity. You can have all the dreams and the intelligence in the world, but it’s nothing without a window of opportunity.

i think you’ll find it is absolutely true.

I think the difference is when I left school with a handful of O Grades with absolutely no chance of going to university, I could still get an entry level job with reasonable prospects for progression. I entered a profession via a vocational route which is no longer available - if I had needed a degree to get a foot in the door it would likely never have happened.

I was able to buy a first flat on a combined income of around £15k, and cover the bills, I could move out of the estate I grew up in and all the chaos that went with it. . I did go to uni, but by that point had been working in the profession for many years, so had a lot of practice experience to bring to study.

The vocational route into my profession isn’t there any more, and house prices are out of reach for people trying to get a foot on the ladder. I wouldn’t be able to do low what I did then, and very much doubt I’d be able to have as secure a career at this point in my life.

And knowing how to take advantage of that opportunity.
just being around people that know how to manage money

Exactly. I grew up in a council estate and was encouraged to go to university as did many of my peers.

I am very serious. Poverty can give you disadvantages. It doesn't take away aspiration or intellect.

No, but if you’re going to school hungry, cold and preoccupied there’s no much room left to learn, if you live with an air of uncertainty about where the things you need are going to come from, with parents who are working 2/3 jobs to pay for basics, who are living with a base line of stress, who can’t afford to give their children experiences that might enrich their learning and spark curiosity.

If you’re working a job in high school to bring money into the house, if you’re overcrowded and have no quiet space to study, or the materials and equipment you need to access learning, if you’re caring for younger siblings because your parents are out working - your intellect and aspiration won’t have much room to develop and come to fruition.

The reality is some children have the odds stacked against them from the day they were born. How do you study hard at school with no parental support and encouragement? I have no idea what the answer is.

There was a study done in Australia that showed parental encouragement and involvement in education outweighs pretty much every other factor in a child performing well at school (presumably because a parent who cares about their kids’ education also makes sure the minimum requirements of being fed and having a safe place to sleep are also met!). Unfortunately some children just don’t get this support and it’s unfair to blame the child for not working hard enough as some posters here seem to be implying.

'better themselves' 'despite their limitations' - what an odd turn of phrase you have.
They can still go to uni. They can still get jobs at 16 and work up. I went the uni route. My friend went into the workplace. I see my nieces and nephews doing the same now.
We're in Scotland. I don't know if you were just referring to England but our friends' DCs are fairly evenly split between working and studying.

@frozenlakes I don't think being working class automatically means you have a crap, unsupportive family or poverty. My parents were a builder and a shop worker. We were poor but they did their best. They valued education. We went to uni.

You can be working class and still be supportive parents who value education. If people are unsupportive and their kids leave school with nothing, that's not class, that's their attitude.

@bellac11 starting salary for a nurse in London is around £30K. Same for a police officer. Given the cost of living, particularly housing in London can be exorbitant, £30K isn’t much. And you do need a degree to work as a nurse so you’d add at least £27K debt (assuming no maintenance loan at all, which isn’t very realistic) to that, as nursing bursaries were scrapped a few years ago.

I'm from a very poor background and was very academic, back when I did my GCSEs I got a few A*s and nothing below a B. But by the time I wad studying my A levels my home life had deteriorated and I performed poorly due to being the victim of domestic violence. I just about scraped into uni but had no idea what I wanted to study so ended uo doing something random just to move away from home. That time of my life has shaped the rest of my life so so much and I had no control over what happened to me. It's always so much more than 'just working hard', 'put the effort in and you'll get results' etc.

Why is it odd turn of phrase? Living in poverty is hardly ideal, is it?

They can get job at 16 and work up how? Most entry level jobs are closed off now and require multiple GCSE's and A levels - same with apprenticeships. This is exactly the point I was making in my original post.

Lots of generic dissatisfaction with social mobility here. But no answer on the fact that more students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds go to university now than in previous generations. Clearly, it’s not opportunity that’s the problem. What is the real problem?

At the same time, our economy is struggling due to the lack of STEM professionals.

Why do people to go to university for pointless degrees rather than in demand STEM courses? This is not a secret recipe to high paid careers. Why not study something that is actually in demand?

It's not impossible but is getting more difficult than it was already.

For the first time since WW2 we have a generation that won't easily be able to better their parents. House prices, cost of living, education and job insecurity is conspiring against our children in a big way.

It's worse in the US allegedly but isn't great here either.

Why not study something that is actually in demand?

Probably because STEM requires the right mindset. I'm an engineer and engineers are in short supply. Other than being a bloody tough degree, it's just not appealing for most people so isn't a simple case of studying something in demand.

I'd imagine a lot of STEM fields are similar.

What the good news stories fail to disclose is that around 9% of WC uni students drop out after the first year. So they “go to uni” but they don’t “finish Uni”. And it’s going to get worse as a lot of the jobs WC students depend on to top up insufficient maintenance loans are drying up.
www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/19/uk-universities-predict-record-student-dropout-rate

At the same time, our economy is struggling due to the lack of STEM professionals. Why do people to go to university for pointless degrees rather than in demand STEM courses?

STEM courses are usually the most demanding and time consuming. For a WC uni student who has to spend 30hrs/week working a job to pay rent and for food, there’s not enough hours in the day for a STEM degree. So they choose less time consuming courses- can’t really blame them.

We still have the 11+ here. I went to a Grammar school. It was full of middle class kids. The odd few from a working class background. All it does do is make the non- Grammar schools much worse and that's where the vast majority of working class kids go.

@sst1234

Sure, there are more students from a lower socio-economic background going to university now because there are a lot* *more people going to university in general compared to previous generations.

The reason for this is the government have closed off many jobs which were previously much more universally accessible by all classes, and made them only achievable through a university degree. Statistically, working class children bear the brunt of education inequality, and perform poorer in schools:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/nov/21/english-class-system-shaped-in-schools

Therefore university actually is a massive barrier to working class children, who in previous generations would have had much more career options open to them.

There's a reason why the vast majority of university students come from middle class backgrounds, because university favours the middle class.

Jobs for the boys (Corbyn's son as chief of staff for John McDonnell) and girls (look at Corbyn's staff when he led Labour) is a real problem. But it's not just a Tory problem...

I think there's a difference between working class and deprived

Yes there is, but according to definitions in research, I had a 'deprived' childhood. However, I didn't feel deprived at the time. Despite my parents barely affording food for us (apparently my mum would have one fish finger for dinner to make sure my siblings and I got enough!), not having central heating, living in a draughty house that was always cold (coal fire- my job to get coal from the coal bunker in the garden) and not having a shower, I never really noticed. Because I felt safe, secure and loved. I was also encouraged to do well in school (mainly because my parents wanted a better life for me). I have a PhD now and a 5 bedroom house. Statically, that shouldn't have happened.

Some kids don't have those feelings of security, and don't have the pleasant childhood I had (despite my apparent 'deprivation'). I very much believe that my parents' encouragement and positive attitude to education made a huge difference to me. There are different levels of deprivation, and it's not always just about being poor. Deprived families can sometimes still offer a semblance of stability to children. It's the ones that can't offer that which make the toughest obstacles for children.

Okay I came from a working class family, slightly chaotic upbringing, alcoholic father with bipolar which was a living nightmare in my early teens and was severely bullied due to falling in with the wrong crowd. (My ex-best friend used to bully me quite severely) However my Mum did encourage me to go to university, especially after she finally left my father when I was 15 (after I took my GCSE's) which I under acheived in, mostly Cs but at least enough to get me into further education and eventually higher.

It was 2001 and I had no tuition fees (which were only £1k at the time) due to single parent low income. And I managed to flourish at uni being away from the toxic environment and friendship circles at home. Made supportive friends and met my husband to be.

I'm not rich but probably class myself as comfortably "middle class" by most standards now, combined income of nearly £90k before I had my baby (I'm now part time so combined £60k+) and overpaid our mortgage and was mortgage free by the time I finished mat leave. I am nearly 40 now.

The path I followed to get out of my situation does not exist anymore. And the price I bought my house in 2013 has doubled.

(Not to mention that having one supportive parent makes all the difference, many do not have that which makes me angry at all those thinking anyone should be able to attain social mobility with just a bit of gumption, I consider myself incredibly fortunate and my Mum let me stay with her rent free for periods of my early 20s when I was getting on my feet)

It is nearly hopeless for alot of working class kids nowadays and loads of the youth programmes and help has totally shut up shop with lack of funding. Austerity has wiped out the prospects for so many.

But people have to believe that anyone can make it, otherwise they wouldn't be able to sleep at night for voting the Tories in and letting the less fortunate rot.