AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

Ps - it is also a problem for mc kids whose parents think that all successful people go to uni and are in a profession rather than doing carpentry and running your business.

Why do you think it's so important for the WC to become MC?

You can be WC and still be successful in life. Working in a trade is just as worthy as being an accountant or solicitor.

That's your interpretation. Let me give you an example, "You're disagreeing because your middle class children are doing PHD's and apprenticeships. They're not from lower socio-economic backgrounds then, are they? What a ridiculously stupid thing to say - I'm genuinely laughing.", was your response to a PP, who in my opinion was not being condescending towards the less privileged. It takes effort, even if you're middle class to educate your child, no doubt much harder if you're less well off but creating this class division is unnecessary, and so is your aggression.

I'm from a minority ethnic background, didn't grow up rich - far from it but very lucky to have been a bright kid so I've gone up the socio economic ladder. Not rich now but doing well enough to put a couple of hundred pounds away every month as savings which to me is a huge victory given my parents were always in debt. Anyway, I used to do a lot of community work and in my (granted anecdotal experience), these underprivileged kids aren't drawn to government programs, they value guidance from volunteers and their teachers so I would encourage you to do this if it's something that you're passionate about. A listening ear and guidance goes a long way.

I have friends In my community who have introduced me to children who need help and when university is something unattainable I have encouraged them to look up courses online (you can get basic certification for less that £50 on discount) that you can put on your LinkedIn. It helps in getting a leg in for admin jobs and they can skill up as they go along. I've seen some of these kids use this to their advantage to get jobs (most popular being in real estate and HR admin assistants I've found). There are ways around inequality, we have to help each other. One youngster a few years ago found a job teaching English in Vietnam which paid quite well. The internet can be used to their advantage so I'm hopeful for this generation.

We should hold governments accountable by writing to them, campaigning and of course with our votes. Instead of arguing here, would be great if you could have used your post to not vilify people you deem are middle class who look down on "benefits Britain" a

@frozenlakes sorry my post got cut off but what I wanted to end with was, Instead of arguing here, would be great if you could have used your post to not vilify people you deem are middle class who look down on "benefits Britain" and instead encourage them to bring about change. I can see that this is something you're passionate about OP, I hope you can volunteer in your community.

Like @CuriousCatfish I'm also confused about OP's focus on class - surely living comfortably is the goal, and having options with regards to jobs that enable you to earn enough to live comfortably is the main issue?

My WC family members largely out-earn the MC ones and I'd actually consider them to be generally more successful (i.e. own their own homes, no student debt, some are business owners).

Another problem is: how you define social class? Is it based on upbringing, current employment, income? etc. Some people would define themselves as WC for life but be working in a very MC job and earning 6 figures, so that complicates how you interpret surveys and polls in which people self-declare which class they're in.

With regards to trades, yes I do think the sex imbalance is an issue as the types of apprenticeships that are generally female-dominant and considered WC tend not to have as much earning potential.

I do, however, strongly believe that everyone should be given the opportunity to have tertiary education and that companies should try and implement hiring systems that don't disadvantage WC candidates. I do also agree with OP that certification inflation is a thing as well - but it's promising that more companies are implementing systems such as general aptitude tests rather than just relying on exam grades and whether people went to (the right) uni. As PPs have mentioned, tech is great for this - at least a quarter of my colleagues in my workplace don't have university degrees and this hasn't impeded their progression.

You are aware these uni programmes don't take on EVERY SINGLE child from a lower socio-economic background? They take on a very small minority of that population, which still leaves the majority of the population behind. What's not clicking?

Not quite sure why this warranted a rude response but, yes, of course I'm aware as that was exactly my point. They may take a small minority but surely that's a positive for those kids? Why shouldn't they be able to access these programmes because some of their peers can't?

Clearly career help needs to be tailored to the the individual and one scheme can't possibly help all of the kids from lower socio-economic backgrounds. Isn't that why we have vocational as well as academic options?

I have RTFT but can't recall which poster suggested that "just basic O Levels" would have been sufficient in the 1970s. They would have been good enough, but only students considered academically able would have taken them; everyone else sat CSEs. So there would already have been a sorting process.

I think there are a lot of thinly-veiled posts on here unfortunately. Class debates never go down well on uber Middle-Class Mumsnet.

@frozenlakes
In your perspectives, how can the govt make a difference ?

@frozenlakes
One in eight young people without degrees work in graduate jobs
Analysis of the jobs and earnings of young non-graduates working in the UK.

18 September 2018
www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/oneineightyoungpeoplewithoutdegreesworkingraduatejobs/2018-09-18

You are confusing 'working class' with 'deprived' and/or from a poor background.

So, for that reason, YABU.

Plus I could be wrong but what if companies, set certain grade requirements, to in theory weed out the potential employees, that have no grades, have chosen to apply for the role but then the company takes the risk for every e.g. 100's they may find one diamond, and or they could be perceived as due to limited or no formal training or education, the company may have to process x amount of candidates, who then may not suit the role the companies are advertising for, and also what if grade requirements are used for when the companies may need the candidates to rock and roll, off the bench so to speak ?

I’m not sure I agree with the esteemed ONS in this case.
“In 2017, 12% of non-graduates (327,303) aged 22 to 29 were working in a graduate job – defined as a role where the tasks typically require knowledge and skills gained through higher education. This compares with 54% of graduates (1,273,336) in the same age group who had a graduate job.”

All well and good, but what is a “graduate job”?

Top graduate jobs for non-graduates aged 22 to 29, 2017

Occupation Median full-time salary
Managers and directors in retail and wholesale £22,995
Human resources and industrial relations officers £26,319
Sales accounts and business development managers £33,119
Business sales executives £24,481
Managers and directors in storage and warehousing £22,693

Looking at this list I see jobs that 30yrs ago would not have typically required a degree. So to my mind what this shows is that 75% of jobs that didn’t used to require a degree, now require one. Don’t be mislead by the title inflation either, a person on £22k/hr is not a retail “director” but probably a Co-op store manager.

£22k/yr not hr! Obviously it’s bedtime so typing tired but also with insomnia

My family tried to bring us all up with a strong worth ethic. They did not see any sort of office job as real, hence we all ended up leaving school with nothing more than GCSEs and going into stuff like cleaning.

My folks never helped with any homework/coursework. I tried to do A-levels... had no help or encouragement at home at all. I am in my 40s now, and my highest level of education is a now expired Access course.

I genuinely wish I could somehow push a button and start all over again.

Wow @Discovereads - so we are funding degrees for 50% of graduates, whose job doesn’t require it.

To be fair - the survey is for young people - so they may start in a non-grad role but may be promoted into a grad one. Also women may take some time out to have kids (but later return to work). But that’s still a lot of degrees not being ‘used’. It’s a bit worrying for graduates in non graduate jobs - that they will have to pay their student loans (if they earn above a threshold) - making it harder to save.

In the past well paid jobs required a degree so there was a class divide as working class children didn't go to university. Now I would say more working class children are getting degrees but yes for those who don't the qualifications required for some quite basic roles can be a barrier. However a lot of manual labour roles Plummer electrician etc can be very well paid.

Working class children who leave school now are going to be worse off than my generation, they have less chance of being able to buy a house due to the way house prices have shot up, there is no longer the option of going to night school to pick up extra qualifications while working. The jobs that in my generation only wanted basic qualifications now demand A levels or only pay apprentice level salaries for 3 years.

Uni is mostly a waste of time. The innovative and disruptive is where the opportunities are.

It's the rampant and ever growing social inequality that is the bigger issue.

You can be WC and still be successful in life. Working in a trade is just as worthy as being an accountant or solicitor.

That's fine if you want to, but not all WC kids like/are good at practical things. I hated DT at school - was terrified anytime we had to use the big drills.

I am much happier in front of a spreadsheet or PowerPoint presentation!

Ps - it is also a problem for mc kids whose parents think that all successful people go to uni and are in a profession rather than doing carpentry and running your business.

We used to only think in terms of the kids getting degrees but have started thinking the opposite. the pandemic has changed so much including priorities in terms of careers. I would argue that actually aside from ridiculous jobs such as barristers where the only way in is being in the right circle, the actual opportunities now are in trades, teaching hospitality, retail, caring professions. (I have no idea if we’re middle class, I grew up probably very middle class, dh not, he’s in what would probably be seen as a middle class job, I work in retail, we are lucky to live in a nice house after years of being poor!!) OP I’d say we’ve all despaired thinking there’s no opportunities but there is

That was teaching, hospitality!!!

There's definitely good opportunities in trades. In my area, plumbers and electricians earn around £80k and builders are in even higher demand as people seem to constantly be extending.

Driving instructors do well, and gardeners and cleaners are paid around £20 an hour (which is more than double the wage my brother is paid humping boxes around one of the big retail warehouses in Yorkshire.)

However, it's very area specific. We live in an area with a high income demographic and there's plenty of money spent. My brother lives in a city in Yorkshire with a high level of deprivation and trades are not paid anything like the same amount. There's also not the demand for driving lessons, fitness trainers etc. The employment opportunities are totally different.

However, trades have a ceiling income-wise and not everyone wants to do physical work when they get older. I know some of the big four accountancy firms have moved to blind pre-testing for interviews, so it's theoretically a level playing field irrespective of whether you have a first from Oxford or hardly any GCSEs. Appreciate that's it not a level playing field in terms of having help to prepare for numeracy tests but they're trying to encourage kids from lower income backgrounds to apply.

We’re not really funding degrees at all now though. In England fees are at the level of the full cost of an arts degree. It does seem that we could be allocating places better- we need to train more drs and nurses so why aren’t we? Although that requires training places in NHS as well.

i don’t think there is anything wrong with education for it’s own sake either.