AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

There is some truth to this.

Your initial post was incorrect. That's my point. Friends' DCs in the last few years went straight into the workplace from school and have been promoted. Another secured an apprenticeship. There are still sectors with entry level positions and opportunities to progress.

'Bettering themselves' implies improvement and value through social mobility. It's not a phrase anyone from my WC area would use. It's horribly snobby and dismissive.

As PPs have said deprivation and chaotic households have always been barriers. And yy there are more families and DCs living in poverty but a lot of those families will be encouraging their DCs at school or into work. And most of those schools have teachers working hard to give the DCs opportunities from bursaries to skills training.

Based on your perspectives then, how exactly can they be helped if they e.g. Follow others and don't aspire to better there education ect.?

Social mobility isn't impossible - which was your title. Yy it's difficult. And yy it will become even more so as poverty and wealth disparity increases.
But I didn't become 'better' because I was the first in my family to go to university.

I think the problem with this thread is the broadness of the term working class - which OP has clarified in subsequent posts. I think what OP means is that if your family (by no means all wc families) don’t care about education and actively discourage you when you are young - there are fewer ways now of self improvement (than previously). This is due to lots of things requiring gcses, a levels and degrees.

I think what OP is saying is that by getting entry level jobs where you can mix with people with qualifications, you can be more aware of the options open to you (that your family didn’t tell you about) - so you get better ideas about how to improve your situation. But some of these entry level jobs don’t exist anymore because they are now graduate jobs or require a levels.

I kind of agree. There has been massive inflation in qualifications - and in many cases it’s just a giant protracted selection process. Companies want the ‘brightest’, so they assume that those who have the best results from best unis are it (even if the entry level job itself doesn’t require it). Training on the job still needs to happen though - so it is a bit of a waste.

On the positive side - I would say perhaps the internet is a big bonus nowadays - there are free resources, YouTube videos, information available. You can search for where to get functional skills qualifications, find our average salaries in different careers (some non degree routes can also be well paid - construction, plumbing, some hgv driving). Some jobs like retail, hospitality and warehousing also have management jobs that people can aspire to. Ok - maybe it would be hard to reach 6-figs from here, but the additional earnings and experience can help the next generation.

@AlexandriasWindmill

I'm not talking about your friends children, I don't know your friends children, I'm talking about statistically, the statistics and odds are massively not in the favour of working class children as a whole right now and that's a fact.

I'm aware that chaotic households have always been barriers, but what I'm saying is there are more barriers now than ever before, which is simply true.

There are many people from lower socio-economic backgrounds who as children and teenagers don't aspire to "better themselves" due to their environment, but change their minds in adulthood, which is exactly what happened to me. There were a lot more doors open to people from poorer backgrounds back then, which is how I managed to "better myself" (for lack of a better phrase) relatively easily. Now it's not so easy, they would have to go through years and years of further education in adulthood, with additional barriers such as full time work, children, etc.

This worth a read. Just look the Executive Summaries:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003977/State_of_the_nation_2021_-_Social_mobility_and_the_pandemic.pdf

But then surely that's the challenges that anyone can have, e.g. Settle and build a family or try to retrain and achieve qualifications etc, otherwise basically it's someone has to look after the kids while they try to balance family with studying, etc

I Understand that their may be more barriers, then it comes down to as Jamie diamond said, you have to be responsible for what you want to achieve,

No, you said it was impossible. It isn't. You also said it was about people 'bettering' themselves ffs.

People who don't still live in deprived areas or work with wc DCs don't see the routes because apprenticeships; bursaries; school programmes; what would have been classed as blue collar jobs - aren't 'seen' by people making pronouncements rather than living it. They don't see the teachers working all hours to give their pupils those routes.

The aspiration to 'own' property wasn't wc. It was a Tory policy. My parents didn't own a house and didn't expect to. They also refused to buy their LA house under Right to Buy because they viewed it as a ploy to deplete the national housing stock. The Tories managed to shift the national conversation around renting but it didn't permeate down to everyone.

@Hawkins001
You can't seriously be blaming children for being born into poverty and disadvantaged backgrounds? 😂

Have a read through some of the posts on here and you'll see why people couldn't just "be responsible" for what they wanted to achieve.

"teenagers don't aspire to "better themselves" due to their environment, but change their minds in adulthood, "

These days with education, mass media, Google and the internet, what's preventing some from aspiring to greatness, and if they choose to not aspire to anything then why not aspire to achieve more ?

Sometimes you cannot change where you begin, but rather than just following the crowd, in some instants, with access to that much information in today's society, then why not aspire to achieve more ?

I Understand that their may be more barriers, then it comes down to as Jamie diamond said, you have to be responsible for what you want to achieve

So you really think all those who have achieved are fully responsible for their success? The fact that you acknowledge barriers shows that full responsibility is not guaranteed to get results.

I think it was Clive James who said; There are limits to the altitude to be gained by hauling away at your own bootstraps.

Lionel luthor, once said no person is an island, so he's to achieve greatness, help from others is needed, but at the same time the desire to do better, has to begin with the group or individual.

I think even these days you can come out of school, start off at the bottom and work your way up and have a good career. A degree isn’t essential for all well paid jobs. Maybe in some sectors it is, but after so long I’ve always thought your work history and experience counts for a lot more. You’ve got to work hard and put the effort in though.

If you're not on a wind up, which I think you probably are at this point, a "desire" to achieve greatness is simply not enough for most disadvantaged children. They're disadvantaged for a reason. Like I said, read some of the posts on here.

"after so long I’ve always thought your work history and experience counts for a lot more"

Yes but you have to get the job in the first place, and with most high-paying career routes, a degree would be necessary.

I Understand that they start off disadvantaged, but some even make the cut for Oxbridge etc, yes I know unfortunately not everyone will aspire or want to achieve more, but where they can better themselves and aspire to achieve more rather ect, everyone or most will have the same start with education where aspirations could be nurtured their to begin with, and help if needed from the teachers ect to achieve more. Then if the help is their, then it comes down to the individuals where they can to want to achieve more ?

@frozenlakes why would I waste time trolling the thread ? I'd be better watching jame diamond and other business leaders speeches instead of trolling.

I think there are better opportunities.

I know the student loans in the UK leave huge debts though I'm not sure if there are grants available for wc teenagers.

The grants in Ireland help a lot of teenagers from disadvantaged backgrounds leave 3rd level education debt free.

Most of the teenagers around here with the right family support go on to third level education with a part time job.

All of my nieces nephews and friends DC are studying or have a degree in something.

It wasn't nearly as common 20 years ago.

I emphasise that the teenagers with the supportive families have easier access as those without family support are slipping through the cracks worse than ever.

Violence, antisocial behaviour, drug dealing has increased too and sucks in DC from these areas.

In some ways, things are improving.

Those with practical skills are in huge demand, with plumbers, slaters, builders, electricians having the opportunity to earn high salaries. And there is no reason why someone from a poor background can't get a degree. The lifelong educational loan entitlement (if it happens) will make it much easier for those who choose not to study immediately after school.

The cultural thing is more difficult, but that isn't always tied to poverty. I know of children raised in affluent middle class families who think it's beneath them to do a hard day's work, and those from poor backgrounds with a far better work ethic. I'm from a fsm background and have a business degree. despite my df actively trying to prevent it. People will always find a way through.

Yes I have minimal GCSEs but anyone who applied for what I do now would need a degree and my colleague does with his massive uni debt although younger so well paid but insane he couldn't get the job without it. Many of my colleagues have no GCSEs really in their 40s yet we expect new people to have A Levels and degrees? Why?

Social mobility is harder when it's more difficult to access things like education.

But I think focusing on social mobility isn't really all that usefu;. Yes, some people may go "up" if given the opportunity. Others may go down. But in the end we don't need a whole country full of doctors, layers, bankers, and advertising execs.

We do actually need mechanics and cleaners and factory workers and waiters. There will always be dead end admin jobs. These people need to be able to live and in a dignified way just as much as the people who go to university and do better than their parents economically.

Requiring excess educational qualifications makes that harder because they acquire debt, or at least aren't earning, at a time when they could be.

Making businesses pay for technical and vocational ed, rather than students, would probably sort a lot of that out.