AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

And some children

have one or both parents in jail
have one or both parents chronically or terminally ill and are young carers
have one of both parents who die during their childhood or school years
have to work outside of the home to bring in money
are chronically or terminally ill themselves, or have a sibling who is
are homeless or living in temporary accommodation

I grew up with four from the first list and four from the second, but I have managed to get a degree - funded it entirely myself, no student debt. And to own my home outright, fully paid off. I’m not rich, but I’m proud of where I’ve got considering.

Why would you stay in a job where people tell you you’re an idiot? What an odd thing to think she should take.

disturbingly so.

@Fushiadreams It's not always that easy to just up and leave your job, you don't know her circumstances. You're taking this all very personally? You can always leave the thread if you don't like it.

There’s a lot of nuance around this.

Depends how you are defining “success”, i think thats changed a lot recently.

Depends on the industry too, creative, tech and media business regularly take chances on unqualified enthusiastic people and offer opportunities for growth and progression.

i think the term working class is so confusing now, most people i know are “working class” but most youngsters are doing fine in terms of their career prospects, whatever that may be; uni, college, apprenticeship, straight in to work etc

I think there's a difference between working class and deprived.

Children in deprived homes have huge survival barriers before they even begin to look at education and careers.

My neighbours are deprived. Multigenerational unemployment. Multigenerational criminality. Parental aminosity towards education and services. I watched their 17 YO son assault his girlfriend this AM and be arrested. This is a regular occurance. Their 15 YO is awaiting court for aggravated burglary with a machete. The kids had no chance with their parents.

We are working class/very low income due to circumstances. However, I am well educated and reinforce the importance of education. We own books and we do things. We cook and we craft. We are low income but a stable income with a secure home and an affordable life. My children have a far better future than the deprived family next door ever did.

So powerful!

Op I was a child that grew up in a deprived household.
It was not an option to go to college or university.
I had to bring in money to make up the benefits shortfall, for turning 16 as my mother would be down in n money.
It was work or leave.
No other option.
So I understand what you are trying to say.

I also work with SEND families. SEND children with poorly educated parents are hugely disadvanatged no matter how much the parent wants to support them. The system is hideously complex. The children with parents who understand how it works, can supplement with private reports and assessments are at a huge advantage.

I know one family with most of the attributes you describe. Except it's not the parent s who are abusive drug addicts - there's only mum. And there's no 'family business' to help out in. Mum isn't illiterate but she can't help with homework.

This mum is definitely of 'middle class' background, complete with private education, but turned to drugs and became the stereotypical '9 kids with 9 dads' mum.

It's over simplified to categorise 'working class' as disadvantaged with no chance of getting on in life and 'middle class' as privileged with success virtually guaranteed.

but there's no excuse for not getting 5 GCSEs and A Levels

You're aware of the issues some children - regardless of class - actually face?

I’m having a kitchen fitted at the moment. I’m a university lecturer with a PhD and my fitter earns more than I do p.a. I only know this as he took great pleasure in telling me!

So many factors, cultural capital, geographical location, race, poverty, sex are all huge factors in equality and having the ability to climb socially. In some respects its meant to be easier things like free school hours for 2 year old, free school meals and pupil premium to ensure those children are still 'included' but what goes beyond that is the wider social inclusion, I've just spent 3 years studying various childhood studies and the general consensus in every area was that poverty affects everything. Health, wealth, socially, mentally, how you parent, how you communicate its so wide.

Great discussion OP

The ‘system’ isn’t hard to work out. Book a FREE adult guidance appointment with the National Careers Service, and they will explain it.

Or go on the Student Room> Student Finance tab for the quick videos

@amicissimma But I'm talking specifically about disadvantaged working class children.

@Mumofsend I've also seen this kind of situation firsthand. Completely agree.

Well I was the council house girl raised by a single mum (when it was rare and a bit shameful) who got into grammar school and read law at university with a full grant. It kind of skews my view of which party’s policies have done most for social mobility.

Everything is on its head since Blair’s 50% target imo. Many jobs are now degree entry when they used to be unnecessary and the jobs that used to require an undergraduate degree now ask for a Masters. Tradesmen are rare as rocking horse shit and charge accordingly especially post-Brexit. I’m hoping DS becomes a plumber or a sparky.

@Damnautocorrect i didn’t go to Uni, couldn’t afford it that's just not true.

Yes, it is hard to get to Oxford or Cambridge, but this isn’t the 1700’s , there are numerous ways to ‘ move up’

I'm not sure you are coming from the angle the OP is, yes there is the typical MN approach of going to an appeal to authority of going to an RG uni and pretending they then can posess an anlytical knowledge of economics because they have read the FT and Guardian whilst getting a 2.1 in a social science, but we are in a situation of the wash out of the last Labour gov wanting 50% so devaluing degrees, we are in a situation where some mega corps are wanting a degree for managing a fast food/coffee shop chain

There is far more nuance in the situation, funnily enough those parent complaining now where all to happy to accept the populist policies of the gov at time to introduce and pretend that slippery slope wasn't a thing, that's before we bring the real black swan into the mix of house prices, costs of lockdown, Labours PFI really hurting the NHS budgets over the next few years etc etc.

@Eunorition I don't think you have any idea how hard it is for kids to work hard in an average secondary school today. Take away the fact that many 'working class' families don't necessarily have the attitude you'd like them to have towards their kids education. The constantly disrupted classes, the levels of bullying, the fact kids know (because of covid) that education can take place out of school, the levels of anxiety of many kids going back after covid. Schools are not an ideal place for many many children to learn or do their best

Yanbu. People are missing your point that you’re talking about NOW. Yes me and DH worked our way up from broke backgrounds in our day blah blah but I agree with OP it is much much harder now than it was a generation ago. I mean someone upthread posted a Goldman Sachs article saying precisely the same as OP so obviously she is right.

Sucks eh. A huge part of it comes from how the property market was allowed to become a financial speculation market with bankers bonuses and Russian investor landlords driving up high prices etc.

Biggest killer of social mobility though was increasing the amount of university places and introducing fees. My degree was free. It got me a high paying job because I was bright enough to get on a massively competitive course. I would not have been able to go if there was a fee. Couldn’t do that now: degrees are sold.

Ironically, many of the degrees now are also much lower quality, with students policing their lecturers’ thoughts and demanding the final say in course content 🙄 Almost like they went there to pay a fee, meet their future spouse, and get a certificate entitling them to a high paid job, as opposed to anything so old fashioned as learning…

I think it depends on the type of person you are and your skills. If you are academic there is help getting to uni (lower grade requirements and more money).

But I do think it is impossible to get ahead with just pure determination and hard work. I've done well for myself through a combination of marrying well (DH comes from a council estate but is very clever, hardworking and well paid) and starting my own business alongside working a PAYE job.

I have a friend who works in a care home 50+ hours a week. She has been promoted to a senior role but still can't afford to buy a home and her rent swallows up a big proportion of her pay. But my grandad worked in a factory, entry level job and was able to afford a 4 bed house.

If your issue is with the need to get a degree, then you need not worry. It’s never been easier to get a degree. They are easy enough to get and you only need to be able to write your name to get one.

And the funding is recovered through a graduate tax. The problem is that people keep going to pointless degrees, while the country struggles with the lack of. STEM professional. So no, it’s never been easier to get a degree and climb the ladder. As long as you follow supply and demand and study for a degree that actually counts.

My mum came from a working class background. She was in a grammar school in the 70's in a northern town.
She was discouraged by her family from going to Uni. But she did it and got a degree from the London School of Economics.
While doing the degree she became pregnant with me
She kept me.
She should not have done that. I have mental health issues and dyspraxia. I was intelligent, still am, grew up with emphasis being put on education and obtaining things educationally. But I was never going to do well in main stream schooling.
I have a degree now, graduated in 2017 but it's not really useful for much.
I've been employed since I graduated in an admin role
I am a top performer in my team. But out of the nine jobs I have applied for, during that time period I have had five interviews and not managed to get another job offer.
So the social mobility I have witnessed has been downwards, from my mums high achievements where she had to actively work against the expectations placed upon her.
And she looks down on me, I know she does, 'I did it, so why can't she?'

I disagree quite strongly with that. There is far more social mobility now than there ever was. That's not to say the problem of access to disadvantaged kids doesn't exist - it absolutely does. But the percentage of kids accessing uni from the most deprived backgrounds has been increasing for years, and continues to do so.

I totally disgaree, almost all the big banks have programmes now to take on school leavers directly from comprehensive schools for apprenticeship programmes which usually take 3 years and finish with a job offer. Quite a number will pay for formal qualifications eg accounting too.

I’m another exception; albeit I’m in my late 30s and went to college then Uni to do STEM as a single parent of 3.

I had chaotic AF childhood/teen years, one of the most deprived areas/worst schools, got straight A*s at GCSE, 4 As at As Level.

Y13 was an absolute shit show for me and I burnt out as I was no longer able to cope with demands of getting the grades I needed to get to claw my way out back breaking generational poverty with raising my four younger siblings whilst my mother and step Dad spent 24/7 getting pissed out of their faces, kicking the shit out of each other and me.

I spent some time in hospital after a serious suicide attempt, during which time I turned 18, got some inheritance from my parental side and fucked off into the sunset, I never went home. I’ve never been home.

But shit went from bad to worse due to the trauma I’d been through and I was 29 before I was able to Do Something About It.

I have a BSc and an MRes, several side qualifications and a wild salary that I spent my 20s feeling like I’d never have, and was full of rage at what could have been.

Will I ever own a home? Probably not. Rents are too high, one of my children is disabled so that will limit my progression, etc.

Do only people who have grown up in deprived areas and seen the mentality there understand how hard it is to claw out? Absolutely.

A handful of my peers went to Uni - the lowest ranking ones, doing Media Studies, and have NMW jobs. The vast majority didn’t go to Uni, and of those, it’s an even split between - been on benefits their entire lives, work part time, work full time.

Education is sneered at and derided. The shit you get for daring to want more is horrendous.