Man in women’s changing rooms (NOT trans)

[DelisButAlsoCrime]

I genuinely don’t know if I am being unreasonable here or not.

I went swimming with DS today, and arriving at the same time of us was a mini bus with 8 adults - 7 men, one woman. It was fairly obvious that most of the males were disabled, not quite as severe as Down’s Syndrome but similar. The woman and one of the men were caring for them. All but one of the men went with the male carer to the men’s changing room, but the female and one of the men went, just ahead of me, into the female dressing room. The woman actually held the door open for me but I kind of did a double take and held back. I thought about going to reception and asking them but decided not to. When I went in they had gone into one of the private cubicles. However, they did come out before I was ready and the man came around the corner and was looking quite obviously into the open changing spaces.

AIBU to be uncomfortable with this? I don’t know if there is a disabled changing room at my gym because this would be the obvious answer if he needed to be specifically with the female carer.

Not go to that swimming pool

Staffy my adult DS is disabled and I like many parents and carers research the places I take him to ensure it meets HIS needs.
It is not HIS need to put women in scary uncomfortable situations so if that's the only option we don't do the activity.

Him being disabled does not give him a free pass to access female spaces especially at 20 and 6ft 3 or 4 no idea he just keeps growing!!

They wouldn’t be exposing themselves in a women’s changing room, though, if they weren’t allowed in in the first place.

Why should I restrict what he can do on the days he’s with me? I can’t actually go anywhere with him, life is very restricted. Swimming is one of the things I could do. He is no threat to anyone, I am there to see to that and he doesn’t have the mental capacity to be oggling anyone or care a hoot about what he sees. Why don’t you stay away from certain places dictated by other people?

Phone ahead to check accessibility?
Find a pool with disabled changing rooms?
Just do your due diligence.

I’m not talking about in womens changing areas, I’m talking about anywhere! In a womens changing area I would use a changing booth, so no one would see anything in that sort time.

Then you need to find somewhere with a suitable changing room

Why don’t you stay away from certain places dictated by other people?

I do. We all do. I don't go in mens changing rooms, for example.

Your wish to go swimming with your son is not more important than womens and girls needs to feel safe. They are entitled to a changing room with no men present. You don't get to tell them they are wrong to feel unsafe with your son or any other man there.

@Staffy1

Well I’m not seeing much compassion to disabled here, so piss off with your “you might want to try it”. You do realise that there is sometimes nothing that can be done about a disabled person indecently exposing themself unless you can move like lightning and are ready for it at all times, not looking away for a split second. It’s not something that’s desirable, but it’s something that might happen through no fault of ill intention of anyone.

Are you not reading my posts?

Not once have I said you can do anything about a disabled person exposing themselves, in fact I shared that one of my loved ones is doing similar due to his dementia.

What I have said is that I DO expect carers not to say women and girls someone disabled has indecently exposed themselves to "how was he a threat? He couldn't have done anything."

I don't personally know any parents or other carers of disabled people who would show such a lack of compassion as to say to a woman sharing a story of being a victim of indecent exposure at 12 years old "how was he a threat? He couldn't have done anything."

The action of indecent exposure due to a disability = nobody's fault at all.

The reaction of a carer to the victim of that indecent exposure = their responsibility.

And they have a moral responsibility not to tell girls and women that they are wrong to be upset about any man indecently exposing himself to them, whether he is disabled or not.

My value judgment is concerned only with your judgment of that posters reaction to someone indecently exposing himself to her.

Literally nobody has said the things you've implied they have eg that disabled people shouldn't leave the house! Many of us have disabled loved ones and some of us are disabled ourselves.

So don't tell me to piss off, because the only thing I've done is challenge your behaviour when it comes to judging a woman for the reaction of her twelve year old self.

@Staffy1
”Why should I restrict what he can do on the days he’s with me?”
Because you don’t want to put a man in a women’s changing room?
If my 13 year old DD came face to face with him I’d take action. His needs do not trump her rights.

No worries I knew what you meant! Thanks for clearing it up though.

Righto. Whatever. I’m sure you’d love to have to think of things like this before every outing, and drive out of your way, as if there aren’t enough obstacles for disabled people. Can no one understand that an adult with a carer might have the mental age of a young child, and is with a carer at all times, so isn’t a threat? Anyway, fuck this, it’s pointless and upsetting arguing with people who only see things in black and white and can’t make intelligent exceptions, so I’m out and am hiding this thread.

I would stay away from places where I had to get changed and there were no suitable facilities.
Him being a threat is irrelevant, my H and DS aren’t a threat to DD but she doesn’t want to share changing facilities with them. Unfortunately you can’t take a boy over a certain age into Women only facilities, there’s no valid argument for doing so

Ok, so let’s say we make an exception for your DS
Who decides he’s not a threat? You? Staff? Do we take your word for it? Do we allow disabled men in women’s changing rooms? How disabled? What conditions do they have? It’s simply too complicated
No men or boys over a certain age (10?) in women’s changing rooms, makes it fairer

Do I win a prize for this?

Staffy

Please read my posts. DS is now 20 and I have cared for him his whole life DS has the mental age and emotional age if an 8 year old. That does not mean he cannot scare or hurt someone. I could give you a long list of my injuries and damage he's done to our home. No its not his fault and mist people are understanding however I make damn sure I don't put DS in situations where his presence will make others scared or remove their dignity the same as I do for him.
Yes its shit not being able to just go somewhere without thinking but all the effort I make ensures DS is as safe as can be and enjoys himself.

I'd say the deciding factor that makes it acceptable or not if someone is in the opposite change room is whether or not that person is a sexual being. This is why we allow little children in the other one but not adults obviously. So if the person is disabled but still has a concept of sexuality then they should not be in the opposite room, also why an adult female carer shouldn't have taken a man into the men's changing room as some people have suggested she should have done. Men have a right to privacy as well.

"Can no one understand that an adult with a carer might have the mental age of a young child, and is with a carer at all times, so isn’t a threat?"

Some of us have teenage or adult children like this. It is still inappropriate to take a boy of an age to be going through puberty and older, into a female changing room. As well as not being fair on women and girls it is not fair on the boy/man himself because regardless of his intellectual ability, he is entitled to privacy and dignity.

@Sockwomble A mental age and physical awareness aren't necessarily the same. It's totally inappropriate to take an adult male into a single sex changing room.

@DelisButAlsoCrime It's a pity you or another adult didn't go to reception and ask what the policy was, they may have been unaware 30 years ago David Lloyd's didn't have separate family changing rooms. I remember going to reception in a bathrobe as an au pair had brought a 10 year old male into the changing room and a very pregnant woman was getting stressed out at him staring at her pregnant body. Then there was all the additional kit and overcrowding in the changing area

"@Sockwomble A mental age and physical awareness aren't necessarily the same. It's totally inappropriate to take an adult male into a single sex changing room."

I do know that (better than most). I have teenager with a severe learning disability and I have said throughout that no adult males should be in female changing rooms. You must be confusing me with someone else.

CrossStitchQueen, thanks for considering the needs of other women, and particularly girls.

As an adult, I wouldn’t be that bothered by a man with SEN flashing at me, if he was with a carer and I was in a place where he couldn’t physically assault me. But as a child I was terrified when men did this. I don’t know whether any of them had SEN.

I could give you a long list of my injuries and damage he's done to our home

Are you safe? Do you have a husband/partner who lives with you?

Dont forget Trudy Stuernagel’s death Trudy S

There is a protocol for this in gyms. Usually children under the age of 8 go to the changing room of the parent's gender. Maybe because he had special needs it was the only option available. Bring it up with the gym but really if he's in a cubicle, with his carer, I think you're being precious.

Zombie thread alert
🧟‍♂️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♂️

He isn’t 5 though. He’s an adult man who has a learning difficulty. He has gone through puberty and is sexually mature.
OP I don’t understand why knowing there was a man in there you didn’t use the cubicle? I feel like you’re trying to be offended. That said if it is a female only space you can take it up with the management.