Man in women’s changing rooms (NOT trans)

[DelisButAlsoCrime]

I genuinely don’t know if I am being unreasonable here or not.

I went swimming with DS today, and arriving at the same time of us was a mini bus with 8 adults - 7 men, one woman. It was fairly obvious that most of the males were disabled, not quite as severe as Down’s Syndrome but similar. The woman and one of the men were caring for them. All but one of the men went with the male carer to the men’s changing room, but the female and one of the men went, just ahead of me, into the female dressing room. The woman actually held the door open for me but I kind of did a double take and held back. I thought about going to reception and asking them but decided not to. When I went in they had gone into one of the private cubicles. However, they did come out before I was ready and the man came around the corner and was looking quite obviously into the open changing spaces.

AIBU to be uncomfortable with this? I don’t know if there is a disabled changing room at my gym because this would be the obvious answer if he needed to be specifically with the female carer.

@Staffy1

How was he a threat? The carer was with him, so he couldn’t have done anything to you. Also doubtful there were any ill intentions by his actions.

She was 12.

She was frightened by

Who do you think you are to dictate when women are allowed to be frightened?

Would you tell your twelve year old daughter that if a man shows his penis to her and happens to be disabled, she's silly to have been worried as he's no threat.

If so I really hope you have no influence over any young girls.

The first time I saw a penis in real life was courtesy of a 'flasher' smiling directly at me holding it. He couldn't have 'done anything to me' as he was in the field behind a wall relatively far away from me so I would have easily been able to get away from him, and did. I was scared. And mortified.

My parents reported it to the police. He couldn't have 'done anything to me' so after all, in your words, "how was he a threat?"

No, don’t worry, I don’t have any influence on girls. I was one at one stage though. I do however, have influence over a disabled boy and I don’t want to have to lock him away and limit his life when I know he would not be a sexual threat to anyone and is always with a carer - me, his father or someone at school. He could not be sent into a male changing room on his own, so if there was no disabled area and his father wasn’t around, I would have no choice but to take him into a female area with me. Or should I just keep him locked away when his father isn’t around?

"How was he a threat? The carer was with him, so he couldn’t have done anything to you. Also doubtful there were any ill intentions by his actions."

It's possible he didn't understand what he was doing was wrong or he may not have intended to expose himself - he may not have been thinking about anyone else there- but It would still be upsetting/ feel threatening for many people if this happened to them and particularly a young girl.

I dount the only two options available are "lock him away" or "bring him into womens changing rooms"...are they?

You could literally just bring him anywhere except a womens changing room, coudn't you?

BTW, you really don't know that he could never be a sexual threat.

@Trying20

Just a heads up, language such as "flashing your bits" and "whipping your bits out" completely minimises what is almost always a very scary experience for women that makes our stomachs turn over and instigates our fight, flight or freeze response while we attempt to immediately risk assess, look for help, look for a way out of the place it's happening and often go home and burst into tears because the adrenaline necessary to keep us safe has worn off.

Indecent exposure is a sexual offence, falling under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. This means that a person found guilty may have to be listed on the register of sex offenders.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/indecent-exposure-flashing-sarah-everard-police-response

One 2014 evidence review found that 5 to 10% of flashers escalated their behaviour to more serious sexual offences.

Almost every woman I am close friends of or a close relation has been a victim of indecent exposure, with an age range of 13 to 70+

Language is important. Please read the article I linked, consider the impact of indecent exposure and rethink calling it 'flashing your bits'.

And while she may have been scared, there was no threat or danger to her. This wasn’t even in a changing room. I’m not sure what you expect disabled people and their carers to do besides stay at home forever.

Yeah, I don’t think a disabled person (or someone with a child’s mental age) would be arrested for it though, do you? Hope that helps.

Yeah, I’d be annoyed at that.

I don't think anyone really thinks that, but it doesn't lessen the impact on any young girl caught in the crossfire, and it would be good if you were more aware of that.

@Staffy1

No, don’t worry, I don’t have any influence on girls. I was one at one stage though. I do however, have influence over a disabled boy and I don’t want to have to lock him away and limit his life when I know he would not be a sexual threat to anyone and is always with a carer - me, his father or someone at school. He could not be sent into a male changing room on his own, so if there was no disabled area and his father wasn’t around, I would have no choice but to take him into a female area with me. Or should I just keep him locked away when his father isn’t around?

Why on earth would you think I should do that?

My relative with dementia acts sexually inappropriately due to his condition. It's very upsetting to see as he has always been a lovely man.

He cannot help it and is always with his male carer and never unsupervised with women.

Yet I wouldn't dream of telling a girl or woman he indecently exposed himself to, who was upset by it, "how was he a threat? He couldn't have done anything to you'. Because he would have 'done something'.

Indecent exposure is a crime with a victim. The fact the person indecently exposing themselves may themselves be vulnerable or not in control of their behaviour through no fault of their own doesn't necessarily lessen the impact of their behaviour.

And I would bet my house that it never lessens the impact of the behaviour when the victim is twelve years old, like the person you replied to saying 'he couldn't have done anything to you'. He did do something.

A man was in the woman’s changing area.

I’m not sure how you don’t get the issue here.

"so if there was no disabled area and his father wasn’t around, I would have no choice but to take him into a female area with me."

That isn't a viable option once a boy gets older than 9/10. You have find an alternative option. I have not been able to use certain pools with ds since he was 9 for this reason.

Because “stay at home forever” is the only other viable option to him not having been in a women’s changing room 😂
@wellhelloitsme I’m sure you are just being provocative here. There would be a solution which wouldn’t involve young girls suddenly facing a grown man that doesn’t involve the grown man never leaving his home.

If there is no disabled room, yes it’s the only option. Please enlighten me as to other options. And yes, I am absolutely sure he will never be a sexual threat in the same way a baby would never be.

Exactly
You can’t bring him in a women’s changing room after the age of around 10.
Nobody suggested you lock him up

@Staffy1

And while she may have been scared, there was no threat or danger to her. This wasn’t even in a changing room. I’m not sure what you expect disabled people and their carers to do besides stay at home forever.

I do NOT expect disabled people and their carers to to stay at home forever.

I DO expect their carers not to say women and girls someone disabled has indecently exposed themselves to "how was he a threat? He couldn't have done anything."

Because indecent exposure IS doing something and regardless of the lack of intent behind it, the impact (especially on a 12 year old like the person you replied to with zero compassion for them) is likely to be the same.

That isn't casting disabled people as 'baddies' or saying they shouldn't go out Ffs.

It's saying that if their behaviour includes a sexual offence that is upsetting the recipient, it's possible to be compassionate to the victim as well as the disabled person.

You might want to try it.

No, not being provocative, I’m actually quite upset, should probably just walk away from this thread. What other options are there if I’ve already said there are no disabled areas. Please, do tell.

Thank you for being a responsible parent. As an Sen parent myself I find it absolutely disgusting when entitled parents use disability as a reason to trample the rights of girls. The rest of us manage whilst respecting both girls and boys.

@drawacircleroundit

Because “stay at home forever” is the only other viable option to him not having been in a women’s changing room 😂
@wellhelloitsme I’m sure you are just being provocative here. There would be a solution which wouldn’t involve young girls suddenly facing a grown man that doesn’t involve the grown man never leaving his home.

I think you meant to tag Staffy there as that was my point - don't want people reading back to think that their position is mine too!

Of course there is another option, on the occasions when you don't have help, bring to him literally anywhere that he doesn't have to take his clothes off! You know, pretty much everywhere?

The emotive drama is not invoking the sympathy you're looking for. No adult men in the womens changing rooms. Ever. For any reason.

It's not difficult or unreasonable. No penises allowed

Well I’m not seeing much compassion to disabled here, so piss off with your “you might want to try it”. You do realise that there is sometimes nothing that can be done about a disabled person indecently exposing themself unless you can move like lightning and are ready for it at all times, not looking away for a split second. It’s not something that’s desirable, but it’s something that might happen through no fault of ill intention of anyone.

Think I might have confused posts from Staffy and Helloitsme… apologies if I got snarky at the wrong one.
bottom line - men should not be in wonen’s changing rooms!