Page 4 | Girl tried to pull down my son’s shorts

dontwanttooverreact · 2022-08-05T13:10:01+00:00

My son is 4 and he went to a 3 hour camp at our sport’s club today. He had been yesterday with a school friend and today with the same friend. After pick up today he told us that a 10 year old girl had tried to pull down his pants and shorts “to see if he was a girl or a boy”. he is upset, this was his first experience of camp and he is quite shy. Additionally the school friend independently told her mother the exact same story so i believe it (I believed it anyway but you never know with 4 year olds and details. he told the supervisor who apparently said something to the girl but no one told us at pick up. AIBU to be furious? I had assumed initially the girl was also 4/5, but 10?!? Surely that’s not on? What, if anything, can I do? [Title edited by MNQ at poster's request]

Bootothegoose · 05/08/2022 15:19

35965a · 05/08/2022 14:19

I’d be reporting the incident to the police. Yeah they probably won’t do anything but I would want to at least try.

I would do this.

I would be INCANDESCENT. What in Christ's name were the staff doing?

From the supervisor you want - you want a full written up account of the incident - where were the staff? What did they see of this (if anything)? What do they intend to do to SAFEGUARD your son and uphold the DUTY OF CARE to the safety of the children in their care? What steps are they going to take to resolve this situation - including: how will this child be reprimanded/dealt with/will she be asked to leave? What measures are going to be put into place to stop this incident from ever happening again? What changes are they making to the staff rota to avoid children being left for such a length of time that what child can attempt to expose another?

You are escalating this to the police as a safeguarding incident and will also be reporting to ofsted if you are unsatisfied with the outcome of the investigation. This is unacceptable and you are in no way overreacting. Hammer home the terms safeguarding and duty of care.

Vikinga · 05/08/2022 15:20

dontwanttooverreact · 05/08/2022 14:42

@spirit20

I would also ask what their safeguarding procedure for dealing with signs of sexualised behaviour in children.This is a sign of sexualised behaviour in the 10yo child, and this should be reported to someone, maybe to the safeguarding lead at her school, as well. She could potentially be at risk herself, depending on where she is learning this behaviour from

I did also think this

This.

I have 4 kids and they wouldn't have done anything like that at that age.

carefullycourageous · 05/08/2022 15:21

Badgirlriri · 05/08/2022 15:15

typical mumsnet…. “Sexual assault!” “Call the police!”

She’s allegedly 10. She needs speaking to and being told it is not appropriate to do that.

I have not said it is sexual assault but legally it is assault and the club is pretending it is nothing. The girl who did it is clearly in need of guidance/support/supervision.

Original poster

dontwanttooverreact · 05/08/2022 15:21

the plot thickens slightly; I have spoken to the camp supervisor who says that there were 9 children there today and none of the girls were 10. Her son, however, is 10 with very long hair and they were all having a discussion re boys/girls and joking around and my son said he (my son) was a girl and they were playing. She (supervisor) was there for this). I then mentioned to her that another child had independently described the exact same incident taking place and was it not possible that someone (sounds like her son) then followed up this jokey discussion by trying to pull down my son’s trousers to prove he was a boy? She seemed quite shaken by that/had not expected me to stand my ground and admitted it was a possibility.

the plus side is that she is the parent of the child in question so I’ve told her about it and she did say it was totally unacceptable etc. i can’t see it escalating though as she will want to protect her son, but she has said she’s happy to meet me to discuss it.

OP posts:

Bootothegoose · 05/08/2022 15:22

Say you are escalating this*

Apologies for my awful grammar. So sorry your son had to experience this OP, how awful for him. Also do not let them diminish this as it was a girl doing it to them. I have known that to happen.

wellhelloitsme · 05/08/2022 15:23

Badgirlriri · 05/08/2022 15:15

typical mumsnet…. “Sexual assault!” “Call the police!”

She’s allegedly 10. She needs speaking to and being told it is not appropriate to do that.

Yeah, bloody Mumsnet concerned about safeguarding children. Horrible, aren't we?

If a 10 year old boy tried to pull down the shorts of a 5 year old girl to see her genitals, you wouldn't think that was an assault?

It is.

And it's also something (regardless of the sex of the child) that falls under inappropriate sexualised behaviour which can be a significant marker of children who have been abused, so should be reported to safeguarding leads not to 'punish' the child doing it but to help them in case that's what's happened.

This is absolutely an incident the safeguarding team should have been alerted to and that OP should have been informed about at pick up.

Alfenstein · 05/08/2022 15:24

dontwanttooverreact · 05/08/2022 15:21

the plot thickens slightly; I have spoken to the camp supervisor who says that there were 9 children there today and none of the girls were 10. Her son, however, is 10 with very long hair and they were all having a discussion re boys/girls and joking around and my son said he (my son) was a girl and they were playing. She (supervisor) was there for this). I then mentioned to her that another child had independently described the exact same incident taking place and was it not possible that someone (sounds like her son) then followed up this jokey discussion by trying to pull down my son’s trousers to prove he was a boy? She seemed quite shaken by that/had not expected me to stand my ground and admitted it was a possibility.

the plus side is that she is the parent of the child in question so I’ve told her about it and she did say it was totally unacceptable etc. i can’t see it escalating though as she will want to protect her son, but she has said she’s happy to meet me to discuss it.

If she doesn't escalate it you need to

carefullycourageous · 05/08/2022 15:25

dontwanttooverreact · 05/08/2022 15:21

the plot thickens slightly; I have spoken to the camp supervisor who says that there were 9 children there today and none of the girls were 10. Her son, however, is 10 with very long hair and they were all having a discussion re boys/girls and joking around and my son said he (my son) was a girl and they were playing. She (supervisor) was there for this). I then mentioned to her that another child had independently described the exact same incident taking place and was it not possible that someone (sounds like her son) then followed up this jokey discussion by trying to pull down my son’s trousers to prove he was a boy? She seemed quite shaken by that/had not expected me to stand my ground and admitted it was a possibility.

the plus side is that she is the parent of the child in question so I’ve told her about it and she did say it was totally unacceptable etc. i can’t see it escalating though as she will want to protect her son, but she has said she’s happy to meet me to discuss it.

The supervisor must not investigate this themselves.

You need to stop talking to the supervisor and escalate it or find some external authority to report it to IMO.

My advice is to stop trying to resolve this informally. Do not meet the supervsior. I bet she is happy to meet you! Because that way she can shut you down.

Bootothegoose · 05/08/2022 15:25

dontwanttooverreact · 05/08/2022 15:21

the plot thickens slightly; I have spoken to the camp supervisor who says that there were 9 children there today and none of the girls were 10. Her son, however, is 10 with very long hair and they were all having a discussion re boys/girls and joking around and my son said he (my son) was a girl and they were playing. She (supervisor) was there for this). I then mentioned to her that another child had independently described the exact same incident taking place and was it not possible that someone (sounds like her son) then followed up this jokey discussion by trying to pull down my son’s trousers to prove he was a boy? She seemed quite shaken by that/had not expected me to stand my ground and admitted it was a possibility.

the plus side is that she is the parent of the child in question so I’ve told her about it and she did say it was totally unacceptable etc. i can’t see it escalating though as she will want to protect her son, but she has said she’s happy to meet me to discuss it.

Unacceptable. Someone tried to expose him - who was it? That is up to her to find out, if she cannot again - report to police/ofsted.

The fact it was her child is alarming. Follow this conversation up with an email, keep a paper trail of this in case she attempts to deny this happened. Also please ignore the posters quick to minimise this, this is not 'kids playing'.

RoseslnTheHospital · 05/08/2022 15:26

It shouldn't matter that the 10 yr old child in question might have been the supervisor's own child. There should be a procedure for handling this sort of incident being reported by a child, including if there is some doubt about the identity of the perpetrator. How will they keep children safe moving forward? Are they following their own procedures? etc etc

wellhelloitsme · 05/08/2022 15:26

Georgeskitchen · 05/08/2022 15:18

I would be more inclined to think it was either a dare, a prank , or curiosity. Some 10 year olds(if this girl I actually 10) are more mature than others, not saying what she did or tried to do is acceptable , but neither is vilified a child as a future sex offender. A quiet talk about acceptable behaviour would be more appropriate IMO

Would you say this if a 10 year old boy did it to a 5 year old girl?

Genuine question.

10 year olds are literally taught in school now about consent and bodily autonomy. The pants rule etc.

They know it's inappropriate already.

Songoftheseas · 05/08/2022 15:27

Why has no one considered the possibility of additional needs? A NT 10 year old should absolutely know that this behaviour is completely unacceptable. My daughter is 6 and is likely to have PDA - whilst I REALLY hope she would never do anything like this, she can behave inappropriately socially. I’m not suggesting that this is remotely acceptable by the way, but it might explain why the club have chosen to deal with everything privately.

Alfenstein · 05/08/2022 15:28

@wellhelloitsme pantsing is a known 'practical joke'

It's not right nor appropriate but this is a far cry from sexual assault

carefullycourageous · 05/08/2022 15:29

Alfenstein · 05/08/2022 15:28

@wellhelloitsme pantsing is a known 'practical joke'

It's not right nor appropriate but this is a far cry from sexual assault

It is assault.

Lots of practical jokes are legally assault.

idonotmind · 05/08/2022 15:29

What difference does it make if it's a boy, who has long hair, that happens to be her son?

I smell bullshit

summerandsun · 05/08/2022 15:29

GretaVanFleet · 05/08/2022 14:53

Thank goodness for that.

What do you want from this? An apology given to your DS? To speak to the child yourself? The girl excluded temporarily or permanently?

Ultimately she tried but failed to pull the shorts down. Children do stupid things. I’d be happy if the staff explained to her in the presence of her parents why this isn’t acceptable, with a warning that if she did it again she’d not be able to attend again.

Show quote history

This exactly. I feel there have been lots off OTT responses and talking about sexual assault and going to the police. Frightening that this escalation is suggested imho. The girl is 10! Do we not think they're children at 10? 'Show me yours and I'll show you mine' is nothing new. Maybe a bit old, for sure, to be doing it when 10 but you don't know the context and maybe she's immature, or maybe it was a dare. Please don't make out that 10 year olds are all sexual predators for this behaviour. It wasn't the right thing for her to do, but no need to go overboard.

I still think it's ludicrous that the age of criminal responsibility is as low as 10 as is the case in the UK. Not so in most other civilised countries btw.

idonotmind · 05/08/2022 15:30

this is a far cry from sexual assault

Wrong.

RoseslnTheHospital · 05/08/2022 15:31

Songoftheseas · 05/08/2022 15:27

Why has no one considered the possibility of additional needs? A NT 10 year old should absolutely know that this behaviour is completely unacceptable. My daughter is 6 and is likely to have PDA - whilst I REALLY hope she would never do anything like this, she can behave inappropriately socially. I’m not suggesting that this is remotely acceptable by the way, but it might explain why the club have chosen to deal with everything privately.

Well, I did refer to that possibility in my second post. But it is not directly relevant because the club's procedures should be sufficient to cope with those circumstances eg if a child with additional needs is attending, they may need one-to-one or smaller ratios in order to manage them and safeguard all the children etc etc. What's worrying here is that the response was to minimise, ignore and seek to brush under the carpet rather than following clear procedures/policies in a professional way.

Goldbar · 05/08/2022 15:31

Your poor son, OP. I'd definitely be reassuring him that this is not acceptable and going over the PANTS rule with him again (which I'm sure you're doing anyway).

I think the problem is not so much that this has happened, although clearly it is an unpleasant thing to occur, but the way the camp has dealt with it. Essentially, they seem to have minimised it. And I agree that they would probably not have done so if it had been a 10yo boy and a 4yo girl. I think you're right to be angry, but I would mostly direct that anger at the camp for their inappropriate supervision and response. 4 is very young and if they're going to take children that young, many of whom won't have started school yet, they need to supervise them properly. With the girl, I would still report it just in case it is part of a pattern of inappropriate behaviour which may indicate something more troubling rather than an isolated incident.

Alfenstein · 05/08/2022 15:32

idonotmind · 05/08/2022 15:30

this is a far cry from sexual assault

Wrong.

Based on the definition of sexual assault it damn well is

wellhelloitsme · 05/08/2022 15:34

Alfenstein · 05/08/2022 15:28

@wellhelloitsme pantsing is a known 'practical joke'

It's not right nor appropriate but this is a far cry from sexual assault

Pulling down someone's clothing to show their genitals is defined as sexual harassment legally speaking, if you'd prefer that term?

Craver · 05/08/2022 15:34

The sports club should have a safeguarding lead- I know this as a friend undertakes this role at a local rugby club. They need to be involved. It would be a good idea to ask to speak to them. I would be worried if the club didn't have a named safeguarding lead.

TailSpinner · 05/08/2022 15:34

The girl is 10! Do we not think they're children at 10? 'Show me yours and I'll show you mine' is nothing new.

Not at 10 years old, involving a much younger, more vulnerable child. Don’t be so ridiculous.
Its a big safeguarding concern and it needs to be taken seriously.

Addicted2LuvIsland · 05/08/2022 15:35

dontwanttooverreact · 05/08/2022 15:21

the plot thickens slightly; I have spoken to the camp supervisor who says that there were 9 children there today and none of the girls were 10. Her son, however, is 10 with very long hair and they were all having a discussion re boys/girls and joking around and my son said he (my son) was a girl and they were playing. She (supervisor) was there for this). I then mentioned to her that another child had independently described the exact same incident taking place and was it not possible that someone (sounds like her son) then followed up this jokey discussion by trying to pull down my son’s trousers to prove he was a boy? She seemed quite shaken by that/had not expected me to stand my ground and admitted it was a possibility.

the plus side is that she is the parent of the child in question so I’ve told her about it and she did say it was totally unacceptable etc. i can’t see it escalating though as she will want to protect her son, but she has said she’s happy to meet me to discuss it.

I honestly think this is an example of kids messing around and it going too far. Could it be that your child said "she pulled my trousers down" but actually meant "she saud she was going to pull my trousers down". It could be the chance said it, went to do it and didn't. This happens all the time with kids.

This is exactly why I never immediately jump to "call the police" and "sexual assault" sometimes (not always) there us a whole other side to a story that children leave out. Also their vocab is not as developed. I am by no means saying do not believe. I am just saying when it comes to kids and kids it can be tricky.

For example, my friends son came home saying no one was playing with him and he was alone in the playground. He also said he was being bullied. It turns out this was absolutely not the case and there was much more to the story than meets the eye. One of the things being that my friend was v v anxious about her son and he picked up on this and began exagerrating things.

By all means follow up and speak to the parent, but also keep an open mind.

Alfenstein · 05/08/2022 15:35

@wellhelloitsme yes

Using correct terminology is usually the best course of action