"School is just not a good fit for all children"

[Postcovid]

Do you agree? My DS is finishing Year One, and although he is bright, has a good work ethic and concentrates well on his set tasks, he just resists a lot of the conforming needed and when asked to do simple things like put his coat on before going out to play, or especially when moving on from playing to a work task (his class use a carousel format, so of course some tasks/games are more fun than others). His teacher has to count down/threaten to remove gold stars, and he always eventually makes the right choice but rarely the first time.

At home he is always asking "why" when asked to do something or not to do something. When given an explanation, he usually complies. However when he asks "why" in school, of course his teacher doesn't have the capacity to answer every time. I've spoken to him about this sort of thing at length, explained it's the teacher's rules in the teacher's classroom, that he must do as she asks etc. He tells me sometimes it's when something will be boring, he says he doesn't want to.

FWIW yes we have considered neurodiversity and he has recently been referred for assessments, but we will be waiting years. And also yes, I fully understand it makes the teacher's job tricky when she has 29 other children to teach. But on the flip side, I understand not wanting to conform all the time, and not to do things without trying to find out the reason. I'm hoping it'll stand him in good stead in terms of not succumbing to peer pressure when he's older. But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

As an early years teacher I disagree! There is nothing wrong with an enquiring mind and that is good but there also has to be structure and organisation in the classroom.
Unfortunately we all don't have want to do things but that is life. I think we have gone the other way and are too quick to target a child for intervention when we just need to teach a little resilience.
We can't accommodate all children and if you feel there is a neuro diverse issue then you need to discuss that with the school teacher and senco for more support? Have school raised any issues?

Being able to conform with a large group fairly unquestioningly is the core requirement for mass education to work. It is very difficult for some children. Some schools cope better than others with children who struggle to go with the flow.

Sorry I meant we will accommodate all children. Not we can't!

I don’t see how school can possibly suit all children. Think about the workplace, some people would be miserable working in an office, whilst some thrive on it. Why do we expect children to all cope in the same environment with no say in the matter?

If you want him to remain in school and not home educate him you will have to help him to confirm to the class rules. They all have to understand that when they have to change tasks he has to do it. In year 2 it will expected more otherwise you will be called in for discussions of how your child is disrupting the class. In older years it effects other children's learning. It's not just about your kid.

I’ve home educated 3 of 5 for this reason, and also gave up teaching to do so.

I do think my answer 15 years ago though would have been different. Schools have changed significantly in ethos, as has the curriculum. I may not have home educated had they not.

I mean sure, there are kids who would thrive better in other environments, just as their are adults who don’t suit a structured 9-5.

However imo year 1 is too early for this and most of the things you mention really don’t have anything to do with it.
Not beingI’m a school setting shouldn’t have anything to do with wearing a coat and going out in weather appropriate clothes or refusing to move from play to work. Children need to learn that sometimes they just have to do things. Not having that ability will be incredibly limiting in life.

But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

Where are you getting that idea from though? I've certainly seen no evidence of that in the schools I work in. Using strategies to get children to cooperate and follow instructions is helpful for their development, it's not 'expecting them to act like robots'.

Teachers are used to the fact that some children take longer than others to get into routines. Imo it is a big exaggeration to describe following simple requests like 'Please put your coats on' as 'conforming'. These kinds of requests and instructions are not going to turn your child into a personality-free automaton. They are presumably no different from the kinds of requests you'd make at home!

Teachers are well aware that children are individuals with distinct personalities. In fact, teaching would be very boring if they weren't!

Of course one size doesn’t fit all. I home educate instead.

Isnt it an important lesson to learn that we sometimes have to do boring things as that's life

I tend to agree, having my mind changed by my youngest. My eldest needs and thrives from a group environment. The challenge and opportunity is healthy for her.

My youngest was overwhelmed and was increasingly damaged by trying hard to conform to a system that worked for the majority but not her.

This was secondary though.

My eldest is in course for a full sweep of GCSEs and youngest now thriving with a blend of online learning and community projects.

Resilience doesn't always mean blindly wading through pain to get to the other side. Sometimes it's about creating positive change.

Well it’s not just conforming with school though is it - school is not the only place with rules. In everyday life you can’t just do what you want, when you want. Rules and procedures are everywhere. I don’t know why schools are sometimes singled out as places of conformity - you have to conform everywhere. If you join a club, if you visit a theme park, even if you go to a shop. Even when you simply walk down the road.
Children are certainly not treated like robots - if you think so you have little idea of how learning in schools looks these days.

Have you considered now and next cards and the likes for him? Often a good tool for transitions from activities, can also be used with sand timers to show when the transition needs to take place.

so Now - we put our coat on. Next we go outside

No we finish maths (set 5 minute timer). Next we sit on the carpet.

a teacher/ TA spending a few minutes in the morning goinb over the days plan may help too and give a time to ask questions

Being able to conform with a large group fairly unquestioningly is the core requirement for mass education to work

Yes. This is one of the reasons we opted to home ed. Necessary, sure, but we preferred an alternative.

This is hard. I believe that school is an intrinsically unnatural environment for children and that many struggle with the rigidity of the process and many other aspects.

Of course there has to be a degree of conformity or there would be mayhem - you and I know that, but here is your child, flung into this unnatural environment and asked to be someone he isn't - of course he will be pissed off. And the poor chap can look forward to another 12 or more years of this.

However, a good school will have a degree of informality in the early years and the ability to go with the flow with differing personalities within the demands for some sort of order.

Good home education with contacts with other home educators and their children is the answer - but how many of us feel able to do this?

I don't see any other way for the teacher to manage a large group of children. Fwiw, I agree education in this country becomes too formal at too young an age but even in nursery, which is based mainly on free-flow play, the 3/4 year olds are expected to listen to the staff and follow instructions without arguing (otherwise how would trips out work for the ones who are too old to be in buggies?).

No, not all children suit school and far too many have to go and later develop school refusal secondary to trauma.

My son hated nursery so we didn’t send him to school. It’s had significant financial consequences for us as a family (and some parents would have no choice at all) but he’s safe and learning

And I expect my 4yo to follow instructions without arguing in certain circumstances (when we're out of the house, mainly) because I am the adult and in charge of sorting us out. Even with one child, I don't have time always to be arguing or explaining.

I agree with this. Mr Gove's curriculum changes came in when my eldest was in infant school and my younger ones have had much more pressure to conform, despite all the school did to mitigate it.

I know a now-Y12 who spent all of YR and quite a lot of Y1 outside on a scooter. School was relaxed about it, said some are just not ready to settle down until Y2. He's been a very bright, conscientious, "conforming" student right through secondary and is aiming for Cambridge. I'm not saying it was perfect in the olden days, but I think infant school's got much harder for kids like this, relatively recently.

Would your son accept a reason like "we have to do this because it's on the National Curriculum" or "you might find this boring but I have to think of 3 different tasks and this appeals to others" ?

yanbu to think that kids who conform get along fine at school and with kids massively outnumbering adults then conformity keeps the system ticking. School worked for my kids because my kids were "normal" at home but didn't want to be the naughty kid at school so acted like the other kids.

My kids liked the structure of school. They liked the fact that there was a timetable even though they didn't like all subjects and when they could expect their favourite subjects or playtime.

Just see how he gets on. Some kids don't ever settle into school, but also sometimes they have a bad fit with one teacher and the next year is OK. Some teachers hate kids who ask questions and other teachers like it! Nothing wrong with asking why.

One of my managers used to say that if you ask a class of 30 children to do something - to line up in the playground, for example and 29 can do it, but one can’t, you have to adjust the expectation to something they can all do.

I can see that that’s inclusive. I can also see the argument that there re things people have to do in life that isn’t necessarily their choice and that it’s a life lesson.

I don’t think school is necessarily right for all children but neither is work and most of us need to do that. You aren’t compelled to send your child to school though - I’ve always told mine that it’s a great great privilege. And if you really felt it wasn’t right for him you are allowed to remove him and teach him yourself.

However, some things you’ve mentioned make me think your son needs to learn to adapt a bit too. A child leaving year 1 should be capable of hearing ‘coats on please’ and putting on his coat as asked. Learning to follow simple instructions without arguing/moaning/answering back is expected at his age. That, along with your ‘he usually complies/I don’t want him to have to conform/he eventually makes the right choice’ makes me think more than not being suited to the school environment he’s simply not used to doing as he’s told and can sometimes be rude/refuse to do things he doesn’t want to do. But in real life sometimes we have to do things we don’t want to do, don’t we? Those activities will likely be set up specifically to help him learn certain skills.

"Why?" isn't something that is something that it's always reasonable to ask and expect an explanation other than "because it's time to do that"-and if he's reasonably bright then he'll be able to work that out for himself.

If he's able to say:
He tells me sometimes it's when something will be boring, he says he doesn't want to.
then I don't think it's to do with "not to do things without trying to find out the reason" it's more than just he's refusing to do things he doesn't want to do.

Sometimes we all have to do things we find boring or we don't want to do. I'm sure my colleague didn't want to fill out that tax return this morning. It was boring.
He may be ND, he may not be, but sometimes you do need children to obey without long explanations. I remember one time when I had 5 children with me (2 my own-not a teacher, just friends) and I was very glad that when I said "we're going now, come on quickly" in the shop that they all came out without needing an explanation. The police came in as I exited, and I'm glad to report that none of them saw what was going on.

Of course it doesn't.

I teach in a Montessori 6-12 classroom and we get a lot of children for whom the mainstream schooling hasn't worked out.