"School is just not a good fit for all children"

[Postcovid]

Do you agree? My DS is finishing Year One, and although he is bright, has a good work ethic and concentrates well on his set tasks, he just resists a lot of the conforming needed and when asked to do simple things like put his coat on before going out to play, or especially when moving on from playing to a work task (his class use a carousel format, so of course some tasks/games are more fun than others). His teacher has to count down/threaten to remove gold stars, and he always eventually makes the right choice but rarely the first time.

At home he is always asking "why" when asked to do something or not to do something. When given an explanation, he usually complies. However when he asks "why" in school, of course his teacher doesn't have the capacity to answer every time. I've spoken to him about this sort of thing at length, explained it's the teacher's rules in the teacher's classroom, that he must do as she asks etc. He tells me sometimes it's when something will be boring, he says he doesn't want to.

FWIW yes we have considered neurodiversity and he has recently been referred for assessments, but we will be waiting years. And also yes, I fully understand it makes the teacher's job tricky when she has 29 other children to teach. But on the flip side, I understand not wanting to conform all the time, and not to do things without trying to find out the reason. I'm hoping it'll stand him in good stead in terms of not succumbing to peer pressure when he's older. But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

I do think what a lot of parents don’t really recognise is that at home their wonderful questioning little darling is the only one, and waiting for them to ‘make the right choice’ isn’t too much trouble. But imagine waiting for 20 kids to ‘make the right choice’ after long arguments and answering back, all the while trying to teach the group too.

But as others have said there are certainly other options. You don’t need to take advantage of the free school system offered. There are alternative schools, private schools, you could get a tutor, home educate him to your own standards etc. It’s not prison!

I will never be able to homeschool as both DP
and I work full time. No one’s mental health would cope with it either.

Of course some of the requests are normal and of course I wish he would just do it! At home there has been an awful lot of whinging about coat/shoes/teeth brushing time etc lately, but it isn’t always a battle and although selective hearing is often an issue, he isn’t “demand avoidant” to a big extent at home. He’s actually generally pretty helpful.

I do think there’s been an element of heads butting with this Year One teacher and I’m hopeful that his Year Two teacher will be different given the feedback from other parents. His YR teacher never mentioned anything about refusal to do little tasks like this. His Year One teacher claims he has matured and is more willing to comply than at the start of the year, however he still often needs counting down. I do suspect slow processing as part of his suspected ND as his dad is just the same.

The school didn’t raise any issues, I have had to approach them on everything and it’s been a bit infuriating as I have asked for behaviour updates but don’t get any - unless I stand by the door at every pick up (not possible as I only do two a week) asking how he has been that day, and almost always I get “ok, fine”. So it’s been very hard to try and reinforce things at home.

DS goes to clubs like swimming and Beavers. He is well behaved at those, albeit a bit day dreamy at Beavers. He’s also recently started a football club and whilst he’s not much good he participates as asked.

I mean I literally would just leave a child to be cold for the duration of break but that’s where I’m fortunate in that my school would totally support me if a parent complained. Obviously not if it’s freezing and a risk to health but in that case they wouldn’t go outside anywayz

Whilst I agree that school is not a good fit for all children, I think some of the things you have mentioned are not necessarily about school being a good fit but it being about school teaching your child the skills they will need to rub along in life (listening to someone else, following instructions etc). Asking why isn't necessarily a bad thing and there are probably many teachers that will try to be accomodating by answering when they can, but it may not always be possible, or it may prove a distraction to others in the class. Again, knowing that sometimes you simply have to do what your told is something your child will just have to learn. I don't have any suggestions, but do want to say it sounds like you're doing the right thing by explaining that your child must follow the teacher's rules / instructions. Over time, they will get used to what the expected behaviour is, even though it will probably still grate on them!

Yes I suppose you could just leave them to suffer the consequence - that’s probably what I’d do with my own children. However, I’m sure you know as well as me that there are some parents who would be very difficult about these types of things.

OP, if school haven’t raised any issues what’s the problem? What do you do at home when he refuses to comply with requests such as brushing his teeth?

I've taught for a long time. I view this as socialisation. Part of getting used to functioning as a member of society is realising you can't always do what you want to do when you want it. Often the individual needs to conform to the crowd for a higher aim - organisation, bureaucracy, education...I'm happy to explain to students why we're doing activities but I don't have time to do this all the time. Sometimes, I'm afraid, children need to get used to the idea that someone else is in authority, making decisions, just as I'm forced to accept decisions my boss makes. That's just life. Him getting used to this concept is a good idea. Adults pretending to children that they never need to conform does the children no favours at all, unfortunately.

I completely agree.

So what kinds of things did people come up with? And is there any country or private institution doing education close to the ideas of what would be ideal?

Leaving children to suffer the consequences of their actions is often a good idea but sometimes children need to just do as they're told to avoid for example, sitting all day in sopping wet shoes, to avoid heatstroke, to ensure that have adequate food and water during the day, and also that they actually learn!

jayney but socialisation, conforming, and functioning as a member of society should be separate things. If children only hear that they must conform in order to function in society, and only by being plonked in a class of 30 kids at the age of 4 can they be 'socialised,' then that seems a fairly narrow outlook.

Young people can function extremely well in society without the UK school model.

@Kanaloa

I am also taking form the vantage of point of working in a department where we are read for a lot of ‘non- compliance’ and most parents are on board with those kind of natural consequences because they know that their kids don’t follow instructions! I do know that some parents would not approve of it though which is a shame cos they are very effective. I think this is why I found mainstream teaching so difficult overall - teachers are forced into quite a confrontational ‘do what I tell you’ dynamic that really doesn’t work for your non-conformist pupils.

I’d be a lot more cautious around sun safety than getting cold though. Ie. If you don’t have a drink you’re not going outside (with reason lol).

DD is going into Y11 in September and her thoughts are that you aren't allowed to think differently or have a controversial opinion. She says teaching is aimed at the middle and never to the gifted or less-able. So if you don't understand something the teacher just moves on regardless and you end up thinking you're stupid, even if you're not. She also says it's results-driven so reading around the subject and forming one's own opinion is not encouraged. There is a right answer, and that's it. I think it's very limiting.

This is why we home educate as school really doesn’t fit all. My son has had referrals and yes I can agree it takes years. Assessments and referrals started at 2 1/2, he is only just getting a diagnosis now after being waitlisted last year for autism (he is 10 soon). The teachers don’t have that individual time for each child and it can be difficult for children to conform to the rules. We found that my son was left to his own devices due to lack of staff and guidance plans put in place by professionals were not put in place in schools. I provided a lot of my sons visual aids (still waiting for them back from school) and also, transport to and from school was an awful lot of money. My son is free to learn at his own pace at home and we can spend extra time going through what he doesn’t understand, allowing him to learn at his own space and not feel rushed or left behind. It isn’t a fit for everyone and it also is not easy but it works for us and with the new school bill coming into place, I think schools will face more difficulties and children with additional needs will fall further behind despite the government promising this won’t happen. This all falls down to the individual local authority and ours is a damn disgrace, so many sen children are home educated under our local authority.

But that must be partly connected to class sizes? One teacher to 20-30 kids is never going to allow time for that kind of individualized approach.

If you are teaching a class of 6 for one hour you can only give ten minutes 1-1 to each student. Or moderate a good discussion where each student gets the chance to participate.

Would six be the ideal number to produce the best results? You get team work plus more individual time? Teachers if you could choose what would your ideal class number be? And does it depend on subject matter too?

PE teachers need more than six for team games I assume.

interesting question! I don’t know if any international/private system is close. There were a lot of comments about outdoor space, practical stuff, individualised timetables, small groups, not having year groups; like a sort of glamorous tutoring programme meets the ultimate forest school. Also mentioned a lot were ‘applying things’ and kind of cross curricular links like “building a boat using science and maths!”.

Should point out that the CPD was all about why the SEND department was implementing some off timetable stuff for some kids (sensory stuff) and the point of the thought exercise wasn’t to actually come up with things we could implement but just to consider the limitations of mainstream school for those pupils. So there was an agenda!

I did this as a opening for CPD once - imagine your utopian school- and yeah nobody came up with ‘a really big building filled with kids of different ages who all do the same stuff regardless of interests or ability’.

What did they come up with?

Schools are under-resourced, class sizes are too big and the curriculum is in my opinion not ideal or age appropriate in many instances. But if class sizes were a bit smaller and resources more abundant I don’t see the problem. Most children do love learning with their friends, they enjoy being with and being taught by adults that are not their immediate family, they like being part of the big school community and the sense of belonging it brings. It’s a great way to get out of the house everyday. Interest wise - they are building new interests all the time by being exposed to new learning and topics. Young children especially are interested in everything and anything if taught well and a love of learning is instilled. Ability wise, with more sensible class sizing and resources it is not so hard to differentiate learning to make it accessible to all.
I can’t see a problem with it as a model on a basic level.

Of course some of the requests are normal and of course I wish he would just do it! At home there has been an awful lot of whinging about coat/shoes/teeth brushing time etc lately, but it isn’t always a battle

So why do you think that a teacher asking him to do things, and it sometimes being a battle, constitutes forcing him to conform, and yet it's fine that you want him to do similar things at home, which are sometimes a battle? I'm always a bit baffled when parents object to their dc being expected to follow instructions and behave themselves by teachers, when the parents expect exathat at home!

Also, you say some of the teacher's reqests are normal. Does that mean you think some of them are abnormal or unreasonable?

Yanbu, modern primaries with large classes are a particularly poor choice for some children, home schooling can be tonnes better and I wish there was more flexi schooling too.

Yes, school education does not suit all kids. I have a few friends who home educate for this reason, with great success.

Conforming in schools is just the start though. When he enters the adult workplace, he will have to conform to some extent. Constantly asking his boss "Why, why, why?" will not go down well. Yes it is ok to politely question certain aspects of the job, but if everything that your boss asks you to do turns into an interrogation or a debate, then they are soon going to lose patience.

As an experienced teacher I'm sure @jayneyitscastleblayney knows this.

All aspects are taught as part of being in a class of vastly different children.

Actually sometimes it's not even conforming that is the root issue - listening in a group can be near impossible if you have sensory issues and social anxiety.

You can look like you aren't listening or confirming when you're anxious and frozen, or overwhelmed due to noise/bright lights/smells/social dynamics.

There just isn't anywhere near enough choice in primary education, and parents know their children best.

It took my dd 3 years to get assessed, but it doesn't solve a bad environment. It gives you more information if you're lucky.

Also mentioned a lot were ‘applying things’ and kind of cross curricular links like “building a boat using science and maths!”.

That's interesting - my DD is in the American school system which has many flaws (no breaks apart from 30 mins at lunch which I think is harsh) and the bus comes at 7am!

But her school is one of the first in our area focusing on what they call PBL - project based learning and there's a lot of group project work done in every subject including maths where they bring lots of cross curricular elements together, with a lot of reflection and writing about their experiences - which brings language arts into the STEM subjects too. It's one of the things I think they do really well.

Speak to the school Senco and get him assessed privately. You are going to be waiting for years and you said it. Do something about it even if it means missing a holiday this year. Investing in your child’s life and future is the best way to spend your disposable income (if you can) otherwise you will be waiting for years to get any sort of help or assessment sadly. The system is broken.

Isn't it a bit of a myth that 'all children love school'?! My dd personally hates it.

It wasn’t for me. Left school with zero qualifications and found out yesterday I had achieved a first class degree with honours via the OU.

For me it was never about not being academic. I just hated the environment. It simply wasn’t for me.