"School is just not a good fit for all children"

[Postcovid]

Do you agree? My DS is finishing Year One, and although he is bright, has a good work ethic and concentrates well on his set tasks, he just resists a lot of the conforming needed and when asked to do simple things like put his coat on before going out to play, or especially when moving on from playing to a work task (his class use a carousel format, so of course some tasks/games are more fun than others). His teacher has to count down/threaten to remove gold stars, and he always eventually makes the right choice but rarely the first time.

At home he is always asking "why" when asked to do something or not to do something. When given an explanation, he usually complies. However when he asks "why" in school, of course his teacher doesn't have the capacity to answer every time. I've spoken to him about this sort of thing at length, explained it's the teacher's rules in the teacher's classroom, that he must do as she asks etc. He tells me sometimes it's when something will be boring, he says he doesn't want to.

FWIW yes we have considered neurodiversity and he has recently been referred for assessments, but we will be waiting years. And also yes, I fully understand it makes the teacher's job tricky when she has 29 other children to teach. But on the flip side, I understand not wanting to conform all the time, and not to do things without trying to find out the reason. I'm hoping it'll stand him in good stead in terms of not succumbing to peer pressure when he's older. But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

I’d recommend the book Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher, and Ken Robinson’s TED talk ‘do schools kill creativity’. I’m not anti school many do an amazing job, but it’s an unnatural environment that needs conformity to function and doesn’t allow children to learn naturally in the way they will when given half a chance.

We’ll be home educating

No school won't suit all children. But the examples you give are fairly standard requests to get ready to go outside and move to a different activity. These would most likely be required in many situations in his young life, assuming he can simply refuse whenever he wants may just reduce his opportunities. Maybe enquire more on.why he is so hesitant and more opportunities, so sometimes he might find the thing he didn't want to do is actually fun.

The PDA society has some good resources for parenting a child like this which may help.

It sounds like your precious little dumpling simply doesn't want to do the bits of school he doesn't fancy! Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do, and your DC needs to learn that. It's part of life, including the lives of people that are successful or non-conformist as adults.

I agree school is not a good fit for all children. That is why I home educate my autistic DS.

The you have the option to home educate but even if they join groups outside of school there will be rules and they will be expected to conform at times its part of life skills

I'm the nicest possible way, your son sounds like a bit of a whinger.

Did you read the bit about being referred for neurodiversity assessment? Nice bit of ableist narrative there.

As a SEN parent, mainstream school is very much not set up for all children. It can't be. We've has major success in an autism school where there is a huge amount of flexibility, support, child led education with a bucket load of therapy added in. My son was a bit like yours - and they have the time to answer all the whys while subtly helping him understand that these whys will carry on in many areas of his life later on.

@Mischance but those children may still want to join clubs and conformity is expected then as well , you can't run a club with kids doing what they like
Schools have a wide range if kids they don't all act the same
But simply being told coat on before going outside isn't a massive deal
Within our own homes surely most have some rules we expect our kids to follow

I am a Primary Teacher.
Some teachers are more dictatorial than others. And some children react to that. Other teachers seem to be able to ease into things and it doesn't invite a reaction. It's difficult to explain but l have seen both in action and how a certain child will react on both occasions. Perhaps next year he will find himself flowing easier with the Teacher.

I have taught ks1 for many years.

You may find that the increased structure in year 2 actually helps your ds.

I go through the timetable at the beginning of each day to ensure all children know what is coming and when. It helps all children to cope with the day.

A now/next board plus time countdowns should be an integral part of a ks1 classroom and it is worth asking the teacher if this is in place as you feel it would benefit your ds.

In terms of asking why. I encourage all children to question and enquire but also sometimes they just need to do as they are told and follow school rules. It is a balancing act with young children.

You'll get a lot of 'well it's how it is so he'll just have to comply' answers on here. And well, I guess that's true.

But I think we can also admit that if there was such a thing as an unlimited budget for education, and unlimited resources for parents, we would not choose to make children learn in big groups of 20-30 kids, with a rigid curriculum that is the same for everyone, or inside a rigid time structure M-F.

I don't think it's bad to admit that the current system is far from optimal and is also designed to churn out a compliant workforce while providing convenient childcare for the current compliant workforce.

I have autism and I agree with this.

The real world doesn't always make allowances. Life is a series of doing things you don't want.

He's young, but I don't think you'd be doing him any favours by expecting him to learn to do what you're supposed to at school as much as possible.

Yanbu. I feel I made the wrong choice making my child go to school. He has never enjoyed it. I thought it was the only choice as I was a single working mum. It has been unfortunate for him that I was unable to homeschool.

I work in SEND so I KNOW school
is not a good fit for all children.

I also think that giving a reason for an instruction is really important- otherwise why are you asking the kids to do it? Does he need his coat? Is is cold? Does he need it later? What purpose does it serve? If the teacher can’t think of a reason then that suggests to me it’s a pointless instruction. I’d also follow the natural consequences route of ‘well you can leave your coat here but you will get cold’ rather than ‘you need to do this because I’ve said so’.

I also don’t think kids who struggle with school are necessarily neurodivergent or have any specific SEN. Some just don’t like school. This always seemed like a perfectly valid viewpoint to me. This is why I work in a SEND department lol.

Of course not. Nothing is a good fit for everyone.

But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

Unquestioning automatons is not the alternative to 30 children who question every individual instruction or change of pace. Most NT children pick up social cues that it’s time to put on coats/line up/sit on the carpet with everyone else.

So you homeschool him and he eventually gets a job and his boss asks him to do something You can't ask why you just have to do it ! You would be setting him up for a fall there

You are being completely reasonable.

Frankly it's blindingly obvious something so rigid and broken cannot possibly suit every child. No brainer.

@wordler absolutely agree with you, I lost a longer post that said the same! School is a blunt instrument really. It’s the most efficient way the state can educate a large number of children at once but is it anybody’s vision of an ideal leaning environment- I don’t think so. I did this as a opening for CPD once - imagine your utopian school- and yeah nobody came up with ‘a really big building filled with kids of different ages who all do the same stuff regardless of interests or ability’.

I’d also follow the natural consequences route of ‘well you can leave your coat here but you will get cold’ rather than ‘you need to do this because I’ve said so’.

And then what about when you’re outdoors with a class of 6 year olds and James (who complains and refuses any task he doesn’t fancy) starts whining and crying about being cold? March every other child back inside to get their coat? Have a member of staff do so, leaving one person responsible for every child? Leave him to suffer his natural consequences and let him tell his mother (who remarks that he usually ‘makes the right choice’ after some level of argument with his teacher and complains that school is forcing him to conform) that he was left outside on a cold and rainy day with no coat?

Realistically if a teacher is saying ‘get your coats please’ they aren’t doing it for a laugh. If every student didn’t want to listen and argued back constantly there would be literally no time left for learning.

You absolutely should be able to ask your boss why when asked to do something if it's not obvious.

That's how you improve things.

You do not just have to do everything people in authority (or your peers) tell you to do if you can see something is wrong, or doesn't make sense.

I agree @Kanaloa

Children tell me they aren't hot even when it's boiling hot. I tell them they must take their jumper off and insist on it.

Children tell me they don't need a drink as they want to rush out to play and not drink all morning. I insist on it.

I absolutely agree with you op.

School is not for everyone. Some kids do better at home with social classes like brownies/cubs and some do better in secondary with shorter classes, wider mix of people and some don't do well at school but thrive at college.

School is one size fits all approach that doesn't work for a minority of children.

Interestingly I was always good at school and it was very easy for me but I still thought it was fucking stupid half the time. Why do schools need blazers? No one will ever convince me that makes any sense. Why can’t I wear a coloured headband? Is it really ‘distracting’? I was lucky in that I saw it through the lens of ‘how can I make this work for me’ aka get my GCSEs and leave but not all kids will be able to adopt that approach.