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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"School is just not a good fit for all children"

171 replies

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 17:14

Do you agree? My DS is finishing Year One, and although he is bright, has a good work ethic and concentrates well on his set tasks, he just resists a lot of the conforming needed and when asked to do simple things like put his coat on before going out to play, or especially when moving on from playing to a work task (his class use a carousel format, so of course some tasks/games are more fun than others). His teacher has to count down/threaten to remove gold stars, and he always eventually makes the right choice but rarely the first time.

At home he is always asking "why" when asked to do something or not to do something. When given an explanation, he usually complies. However when he asks "why" in school, of course his teacher doesn't have the capacity to answer every time. I've spoken to him about this sort of thing at length, explained it's the teacher's rules in the teacher's classroom, that he must do as she asks etc. He tells me sometimes it's when something will be boring, he says he doesn't want to.

FWIW yes we have considered neurodiversity and he has recently been referred for assessments, but we will be waiting years. And also yes, I fully understand it makes the teacher's job tricky when she has 29 other children to teach. But on the flip side, I understand not wanting to conform all the time, and not to do things without trying to find out the reason. I'm hoping it'll stand him in good stead in terms of not succumbing to peer pressure when he's older. But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

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Sherrystrull · 20/07/2022 19:52

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 19:45

@Sherrystrull it’s far from unusual for a ND child to find sitting on the floor particularly uncomfortable, even painful. The sensory issues around the ground, being in such close quarters to others (and they really are shoulder to shoulder, nose to back), not to mention common mobility issues such as a weak core, hyper mobility. The SENCO today actually pointed out that because my DS is unusually tall, it’s very noticeable when he is fidgeting on the mat as opposed to smaller DC. The issue here is his concentration, which on the mat is poor compared with at a table. I imagine because the sensory complications are distracting, coupled with being pulled up every time he fidgets (at a table you can swing your legs freely without being disruptive). I cannot sit still in a meeting at work at the age of 38; I pen fiddle, move my legs a lot etc.

I've taught for many years. I've come across one child who couldn't sit on the carpet.

Nothappyatwork · 20/07/2022 19:56

Sherrystrull · 20/07/2022 19:52

I've taught for many years. I've come across one child who couldn't sit on the carpet.

@Sherrystrull I couldn’t sit still on the carpet in 1978 I am 99.9% certain that there have been many children that came after me that couldn’t sit still on the carpet

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:05

@Momr his report says he responds well to praise, the carrot and the stick has tended to work well for him at home, if there’s something in it for him, he’s an angel. It’s why I really hope (paid) work eventually won’t be an issue!

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Dalaidramailama · 20/07/2022 20:06

@Phineyj

Oh it was super satisfying. I am still buzzing at the news. Thank you.

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:06

@Sherrystrull I distinctively remember my own year one class back in 1989, more than one boy sat at a table instead of the mat at various points. Yes, always boys.

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NoSquirrels · 20/07/2022 20:07

I think loads of primary age kids don’t sit still - either on the carpet or at a desk! It’s fairly typical for 4/5/6 year olds not to sit still.

Your DS may well have an issue which means sitting on the carpet is a particular issue but until that’s diagnosed they’ll just treat him as per the rest of the class, which seems pretty reasonable, really. You’ve said yourself it’s low level stuff. It’s fantastic that the SENCO is on board with getting a process started to explore if he needs more, and of course as his parent you are more attuned to his particular needs and can advocate for them - that’s all great.

But it doesn’t make school wrong for having expectations around how learning activities are organised and run or for having sanctions or behaviour management strategies when things aren’t followed.

TLDR: your DS sounds fine, the school sounds fine.

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:07

Congratulations @Dalaidramailama !

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Kanaloa · 20/07/2022 20:11

Nothappyatwork · 20/07/2022 19:23

I never really understand this whole we all have to do things we don’t want to do philosophy, it’s a very rare day when I don’t do exactly as I please because I’ve set my life up that way and I would imagine that most people would have the opportunity to do that.

That’s wonderful for you but the grand grand majority of us do jobs where we do have to do things we don’t like sometimes. Whether that’s paperwork that’s boring, coming in earlier than we’d like, dealing with irritating clients or colleagues etc.

I know we’re supposed to say everyone can do anything but in real life many people (almost all) will have to deal in daily life with some things they don’t love.

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:11

@NoSquirrels i agree they are not wrong, but I have pointed out that I do think there’s some underlying issues, and the SENCO definitely doesn’t disagree, and his Year One teacher agrees he “stands out” from the rest of the class. So I do think there should be some understanding/accommodation when needed, as for any child requiring support in certain areas. If he was really behind on reading (he’s not), I would think the teacher would pay attention to that and any other issues, so why not behaviour.

I’ve never understood TL:DR, what does it mean?

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Dalaidramailama · 20/07/2022 20:13

@Postcovid

Thank you so much. To leave school with zero qualifications made yesterdays news sweeter for me. The beauty of my OU degree was I was able to pick modules of my choice, therefore fully applying myself to topics that interested me.

I did not conform at secondary. I wasn’t badly behaved but I checked out in year 9 and realised very quickly school wasn’t for me.

I’ve also checked out of many, many jobs quickly after realising they weren’t for me. The result now is I have an amazing job that I LOVE (after many attempts to find the right fit).

If at first you don’t succeed, try, try and try again. That’s my motto anyway. I’ve always just loved life and been happy and my work needs to reflect this.

Kanaloa · 20/07/2022 20:14

It means too long/didn’t read. You can put it if you’re about to sum up a really long post in case people don’t want to read all of it.

Do you feel there’s an issue where he absolutely cannot sit on the carpet though? I know you say he doesn’t want to and finds it uncomfortable but he can do it? I just ask as just because there may be SEN doesn’t mean he won’t be expected to do things he thinks are boring or annoying - he’ll just be supported to be capable of doing many of these things. So perhaps a now and next before carpet time, rather than being allowed to refuse it altogether.

Icedbannoffee · 20/07/2022 20:17

I agree with the point about sitting cross legged on the carpet. Generally this is encouraged because of space and less fidgeting, I bought round mats for my classroom through and as long as children stay within their mat and listen they can sit how they please- but our classrooms are large which isn't always the case, and I was fortunate that I was able to buy some out of my own pocket and they've lasted a good few years. The other things sound reasonable though, there has to be some rules within a classroom otherwise it'd be mayhem, and coats etc we'd only enforce if it was super cold. I wouldn't be bothered by a child asking why, although I'd be thinking of ways to be proactive, I've had children who have responded very well to different things, you get to know your class. Time and resources are limited though unfortunately, there's lots teachers would like to do but can't with the state of education at the moment.

NoSquirrels · 20/07/2022 20:18

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:11

@NoSquirrels i agree they are not wrong, but I have pointed out that I do think there’s some underlying issues, and the SENCO definitely doesn’t disagree, and his Year One teacher agrees he “stands out” from the rest of the class. So I do think there should be some understanding/accommodation when needed, as for any child requiring support in certain areas. If he was really behind on reading (he’s not), I would think the teacher would pay attention to that and any other issues, so why not behaviour.

I’ve never understood TL:DR, what does it mean?

TL:DR = Too Long, Didn’t Read.
A summing up of the post, essentially!

I think you’re right, absolutely, accommodations should be offered. Where we differ is that I think you’re getting a good result from your school - end of Year One and a child who causes only slight disruption in hard to pin down ways is getting SENCO support is a result, as far as I can see, not a failure of the school system at all.

Petulathethird · 20/07/2022 20:31

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 19:20

I would absolutely support any teacher who enforced natural consequences with my DS, in fact I said it to her today - if he says no then tough luck, you’re not going out to play/you get cold etc. I’m sure you will get parents who would complain, but I’ve always been clear that I support consequences for him.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the teacher to expect him to do these things, because it’s her job, but equally some “why” questions (not for the simple, coat type issues, but more perhaps “why do I have to do xyz when that group is playing the game/on the iPads/building Lego”) might be reasonable, but some teachers won’t want to respond. DS appears to get FOMO as he will knuckle down well with work when everyone is doing the same, but as they use a “carousel”, he (like any 6 year old, surely) prefers the fun activities.

The conforming isn’t just about that sort of thing, either, DS doesn’t like to sit on the mat, cross legged, because he finds it uncomfortable, yet he is expected to do this - I’ve asked about alternatives such as sitting at a table for over a year and it’s never been accommodated. Thankfully Y2 apparently don’t have the room for sitting on the mat so it’ll be at tables!

In terms of why I’m raising it, there’s been low level disruption on and off since DS was young, it’s been very inconsistent so hard to pin down. And very low level, only mentioned when I’ve gone and asked the teachers directly, I’ve only ever been pulled aside twice since the beginning of reception - once at the very beginning of YR as he had kicked someone at playtime (very unlike him) and then one other time as he’d been acting up in his Year One class. Otherwise, I have approached teachers about things my DS has told me. The SENCO was happy to refer him on though so it’s not that I’m imagining things!

He would get very short shrift from me if he asked why he had to do an activity when another group were doing something else.
I would strongly object to being asked to explain myself to a six year old. .

Sitting cross legged on a mat shouldn't be uncomfortable at six years old. I would find it uncomfortable impossible but then I'm a pensioner.

The teacher wants the class on the mat so that she can be sure they are all near enough to hear her properly.

Honestly you sound like that parent.

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:31

Thanks I’m glad I know what it means now! I’ll be using it as I tend to waffle!

in terms of the SENCO, he doesn’t have any support; I have met with her twice on Zoom in the last year and she also observed him in YR at my request. She must talk to his teacher as she has seemed clued up on him personally at the meetings without knowing him well. I’m glad we are on their radar though.

I think in some classes he would seem far further under the radar. But there aren’t any other disruptive children in his class, other than his best friend, who I wish he wasn’t in class with as Teacher has said they are much better apart, but at the end of the day DS is his own person and there will always be outside influences so I refuse to “blame” anyone else. We always talk about how he (DS) is in charge of himself, no one else. So they are very much the “naughty boys” in class,

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NoSquirrels · 20/07/2022 20:38

in terms of the SENCO, he doesn’t have any support; I have met with her twice on Zoom in the last year and she also observed him in YR at my request. She must talk to his teacher as she has seemed clued up on him personally at the meetings without knowing him well. I’m glad we are on their radar though.

Again, I think this is expectation-related.

I think that’s all good that your DS is on the SENCOs radar end of Year 1, that they’ve talked with you twice presumably despite no real concerns raised by the 2 teachers, and observed him.

You think this is not “support” - and no, it’s not, yet. But as of yet, they don’t feel he has needed support.

Your expectation is that they’d have offered more support and accommodations before now. I think your expectations aren’t aligned with the reality of how things work.

It’s right you keep advocating and pushing, if you feel it is needed. Then you’ll get the best support. I’m just saying what your school has done so far doesn’t sound bad to me - it sounds supportive of your concerns, which is appropriate at this stage.

wherearebeefandonioncrisps · 20/07/2022 20:38

I was a learning support assistant for twenty years as well as HLTA and SENCO Assistant. I specialised in Speech , Language and Communication. I have a post graduate qualification in this field as well as extensive autism/ADHD training.
This is not a brag but it highlights why, if I had my life again , I wouldn't send my child to a state school.

Children, who may not even be on any spectrum or who struggle at a few things are just left to cope.
Children who are clearly struggling, face years of battles to get funding, extra support, EHCPs, 1:1 support etc...

All schools, in their spiel to parents, bang on about an holistic approach to their child's learning. This is piecemeal. It means absolutely nothing.

If I could turn back time, I would have taken on more work in order to pay for private education for my own children.

ToastTheMost · 20/07/2022 20:39

That was why I pursued a diagnosis for ds because the system wouldn’t bend without it - it allowed ds to be given a bit more freedom to be himself but it was still a pretty awful experience. I’m afraid putting him through the education system left me with little respect for it and the people who work within it.

gnilliwdog · 20/07/2022 20:41

@Nothappyatwork I like your approach. It reminds me of a very lovely friend who once told me she never did anything she didn't want to do. I try to reframe my thinking about tasks like housework and admin with this philosophy i.e. I want to do this because it will make my family's life better in some way. Telling young children they must get used to doing things they don't like is setting them up to discount their own feelings, which could even leave them vulnerable to abusive situations in the future.

ToastTheMost · 20/07/2022 20:41

wherearebeefandonioncrisps · 20/07/2022 20:38

I was a learning support assistant for twenty years as well as HLTA and SENCO Assistant. I specialised in Speech , Language and Communication. I have a post graduate qualification in this field as well as extensive autism/ADHD training.
This is not a brag but it highlights why, if I had my life again , I wouldn't send my child to a state school.

Children, who may not even be on any spectrum or who struggle at a few things are just left to cope.
Children who are clearly struggling, face years of battles to get funding, extra support, EHCPs, 1:1 support etc...

All schools, in their spiel to parents, bang on about an holistic approach to their child's learning. This is piecemeal. It means absolutely nothing.

If I could turn back time, I would have taken on more work in order to pay for private education for my own children.

I feel the same way.

Moonface123 · 20/07/2022 20:46

My advice would be if you have an assertive child stay well away from school. Your child will be made to feel a failure and so will you as a parent.
I was one of those smug parents whose eldest child got on well at school, but then the shit hit the fan big time with my youngest. Since taking my youngest out of school he has thrived in so many different ways. Its abit like gardening if you plant something that is not suited to the particular soil, or position such as shade , it won't do well, if you replant it somewhere else it most probably will thrive. Even animals such as dogs have their preferences , a greyhound is happy chilling on the couch where as a collie would be totally bored.
It is really limited thinking to expect all children to fit in the same box, and the mental health issues that have sky rocketed even before covid re school refusal are a huge red flag that all is not well.
You look at many of the most succesful people in the world and most of them dropped out of school young, they jumped ship and went their own way, nothing wrong with that.

Itsveryclear · 20/07/2022 20:48

collieresponder88 · 20/07/2022 18:21

So you homeschool him and he eventually gets a job and his boss asks him to do something You can't ask why you just have to do it ! You would be setting him up for a fall there

I think you're extrapolating a bit there 😉 My boss has never told me to wear a coat yet.

Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:49

Thanks @NoSquirrels useful to know. I’m confident I’ll always be able to advocate for him as I’m pushy and don’t worry about offending when it comes to my DS (maybe I am on the spectrum as I often rub people up the wrong way without meaning to, because I’m blunt! My DH is the more likeable one 😉)

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Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:54

@Moonface123 you've basically summarised what I think there. I am hoping it will get easier for my DS as he goes through school as he has a good work ethic when there’s nothing else on offer (!) and I think from Y3 onwards will be the end of the “carousel” format, more so everyone at tables doing similar work. Which apparently he is fine with. I also think he’ll be a child who’ll respond well to things like science, design technology. He is naturally inquisitive and very interested in learning.

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Postcovid · 20/07/2022 20:55

Of course that’s me being very optimistic, it might not get better for him, which is why I’m keen for him to be assessed so he has any diagnosis that is to be had in place well
before secondary school.

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