"School is just not a good fit for all children"

[Postcovid]

Do you agree? My DS is finishing Year One, and although he is bright, has a good work ethic and concentrates well on his set tasks, he just resists a lot of the conforming needed and when asked to do simple things like put his coat on before going out to play, or especially when moving on from playing to a work task (his class use a carousel format, so of course some tasks/games are more fun than others). His teacher has to count down/threaten to remove gold stars, and he always eventually makes the right choice but rarely the first time.

At home he is always asking "why" when asked to do something or not to do something. When given an explanation, he usually complies. However when he asks "why" in school, of course his teacher doesn't have the capacity to answer every time. I've spoken to him about this sort of thing at length, explained it's the teacher's rules in the teacher's classroom, that he must do as she asks etc. He tells me sometimes it's when something will be boring, he says he doesn't want to.

FWIW yes we have considered neurodiversity and he has recently been referred for assessments, but we will be waiting years. And also yes, I fully understand it makes the teacher's job tricky when she has 29 other children to teach. But on the flip side, I understand not wanting to conform all the time, and not to do things without trying to find out the reason. I'm hoping it'll stand him in good stead in terms of not succumbing to peer pressure when he's older. But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

@UndertheCedartree none of the online questionnaires for me fit (from memory it was things like routines, perfectionism, finding things like small talk difficult), but I really don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility. I have definitely always had an oppositional streak, I find it hard to leave things unsaid which means I’ve had a fair few fallings out over life. However I’ve found it very easy to conform/fit the mould/do whatever I need to do for work purposes, and as I’ve matured I’ve finally learned to think about others’ perspectives…! I am quite stimmy though, always have been - hair chewing/nail biting/finger drumming/hair pulling as a child, and just general fidgetiness as an adult.

No. By 'that parent ' I mean the one who is endless going to the school about tiny problems such as your child being asked to sit on a mat, along with the others, and thinking that he is somehow 'special' so that ordinary rules don't apply to him and that school should accommodate all his whims and fancies, despite the fact that he is clearly a disruptive influence on the other children as you have admitted yourself.

No. By 'that parent ' I mean the one who is endless going to the school about tiny problems such as your child being asked to sit on a mat, along with the others, and thinking that he is somehow 'special' so that ordinary rules don't apply to him and that school should accommodate all his whims and fancies, despite the fact that he is clearly a disruptive influence on the other children as you have admitted yourself.

Wow. So OP says he may have additional needs, which would explain a huge amount of this behaviour. And your response is that he is disruptive and that she is making issues of a "tiny problem"?!

Nice.

I think you are probably "that parent" who goes into school complaining about other people's children, or moans about them to other parents.

Your son is still so small, there's no telling what the future could hold for him. Let your son be an individual and if school doesn't work for him, it doesn't work for him. I was called all sorts of names by my teachers at school and told I would fail my GCSE's (you can imagine my delight at opening my straight A's in front of them)! I wish I could have been home educated to be honest, school was terrible for me.

Love nor money couldn't persuade me to go back to school, despite everyone telling me 'they are the best years of your life, make the most of them'.

Same here on all counts!

A lot of schools are good the the sit still, conform, able to pay attention and listen carefully types. Securely attached, settled etc. Visual learners great.

Ones that need to get up and move - forget it
non conforming to the sit still and listen - forget it at secondary will forever be in detention

Many teachers aren't 'trauma informed' so children that have had many ACE's and may be looked after or adopted really aren't understood at all.

The issue here is his concentration, which on the mat is poor compared with at a table. I imagine because the sensory complications are distracting, coupled with being pulled up every time he fidgets (at a table you can swing your legs freely without being disruptive).

I’m surprised he hasn’t been given a fiddle toy or a sensory cushion to sit on if that’s a big issue - they’re in pretty common usage now. I’d ask the SENCO or class teacher if you meet them next time if they have any.
I agree that schools can be tricky places for children with SEND. But sensible adjustments can be made, and just small ones can make a big difference sometimes, while some things do involve some ‘conforming’. Should he sit on the carpet nicely - I think yes. Does nicely mean every part of his body is perfectly still - no, hold this fiddle toy, or a bit of blue tack or whatever is to hand. Would I care if his legs were crossed as long as he’s reasonably still and not in anyone’s way, not causing a distraction and listening nicely - not really. After a good successful run of sitting nicely and listening carefully for a few days would would I try to encourage him to then sit with his legs crossed like everyone else - maybe with a bit of shameless bribery - I’d give it a go.
I teach KS2, so it is a bit different, but we have a high proportion of SEND in our school. Behaviour is challenging, not just due to SEND but a multitude of other reasons including neglect and abuse - which is why we actually have to have very high expectations of behaviour to keep things running smoothly day to day, and conforming to rules (with reasonable adjustments and support) is important to make sure everyone feels safe and everyone is able to learn. We recognise that many children need support with that. My main goal is for children to learn and feel at home and safe at school - I don’t sweat the small stuff. Picking your battles in the moment and prioritising what is important in that moment is key.

@EV117 only today (my second time meeting with his teacher and the SENCO) was a cushion suggested. No fidget toys - I don’t think his school would provide that. I have a friend whose son attends private school, he doesn’t like the sitting on the mat element so he is allowed to have Lego on the mat with him, as he is still taking in all the information.

it’s a shame as it’s a large school (3 form entry and oversubscribed) and the reports and ratings are that it is very good. There are facilities for SEN, but I think often DC like my son fall into the cracks. I know some parents with children attending who have diagnosed SEN, who were a lot more “obvious”, with delays from early on, and they have said the school have been very supportive.

Yes. And further - why bother with teaching history? They can just Google it. Or English - they could just watch a YouTube video about Jane Austen. No point teaching anything really. If you’ve never used it it’s obviously not necessary for anyone to learn.

The private school is probably very expensive though, isn’t it? It also probably has smaller class sizes.

If you feel your son needs accommodations such as playing with Lego on the mat since he dislikes it maybe you need to push ahead with a diagnosis so he can access that extra support.

@EV117 only today (my second time meeting with his teacher and the SENCO) was a cushion suggested. No fidget toys - I don’t think his school would provide that. I have a friend whose son attends private school, he doesn’t like the sitting on the mat element so he is allowed to have Lego on the mat with him, as he is still taking in all the information.

I mean, again it might be different for children so young but, but unless suggested by one of the outside professionals that we work with, I wouldn’t go for something like Lego… nothing that is likely to draw their attention away. Lego is pretty engrossing, you don’t ‘fiddle’ with it. I’m not convinced that child is taking in as much info as he should.
A fiddle toy is literally to keep your hands busy - it’s what it says on the tin. We have little ‘bendy men’ but as I said something like blue tack does the job nicely too. There’s also something called a fiddle muff, it’s like a big woolly glove and you can if you want put things inside.
Ears and preferably also eyes should be on the teacher/board.

My experience has been that you need a formal diagnosis for school to do anything. The law may say SEN accommodation should be based on need not diagnosis, but that's not how it works in practice.

Yeah sometimes a school environment isn’t right for a child. I think there is a difference between a child with neurodivergence and a child who just doesn’t want to do stuff.

I think if it’s the second then learning to accommodate others so that a group can function efficiently at certain points is a useful skill for a child to learn (if possible). That doesn’t mean conforming all the time but it does mean they learn how to co-operate when it is to the benefit of themselves or a group of people.

homeschooling is always an option if it’s not the right fit.

@Phineyj In my experience, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. My son is diagnosed with 'mild' ASD, likely also ADHD, but because his struggles are all social and he is top of the class, he doesn't get any additional support. It doesn't matter to them that he doesn't really have any friends and he's not being taught the social skills at school to help him make them. The only way I will get extra support for him is if I fight, fight, fight for an EHCP (the school has said they won't support it as in their opinion, he doesn't need it) then continue to fight the system until he is 18. I've also worked in SEN and it's the same scenario. The parent's who shout the loudest get the support and help, I've witnessed so many children who need support get left behind because their parent's don't have the time or means to continuously fight the council and school.

If it ever got to the point where my child was struggling academically, or his social issues were having a massive impact on him (he's doing ok at the moment), I would home school rather than try to use our woeful system.

I'm sorry, Feefio, it's shit, isn't it? We've been incredibly lucky. We have just the one DC and she loves school, so although she's surprisingly impaired sometimes by her ASD (PDA features) and ADHD, it's a private school and because they've got the time and space and good ratios, she's done well so far. Although I am worried about secondary transition.

But most of my earnings go on the fees and the therapy (we have spent £5k on diagnosis and therapy). DD has never seen an NHS paediatrician - not for want of trying!

It is unbelievably unfair that you can only access services with £££ or extended bureaucratic fights and advocating.

It has made a difference in our case with the school to have a diagnosis though. It has given me confidence to push for small accommodations knowing I'm not 'that parent'.

"Don't do anything unless you want to" works really well - with maturity and the ability to see beyond the immediate. Technically, I now "want" to exercise because I really want the benefits. I "want" to do boring practise of xyz because I want doing xyz to take a lot less effort in the future. I "want" to comply in a boring or frustrating situation because I really want the person I'm with to have an easier ride too.

Kids can understand this too, with increasing complexity, but just like adults, some understand it more instinctively. And still, it doesn't come naturally every single time. It's not as if anyone of any age has perfected it!

One reason we home-educated is that my eldest was a total dream-basket and nowhere near understanding this. All my kids would have managed "fine" in school by surviving, but they wouldn't have learned as best they could, all for different reasons. They'll all go to secondary school. My eldest is there now and doing so well. The school see a great level of engagement and responsibility for learning that are miles away from the reluctance and panic of the early years. I believe that home education has helped my child face those awkward lessons about compliance and fitting at a time that more naturally suited their maturity. And given what I've seen over the last year, I am even more convinced that educating kids in massive groups of their peers is not the most productive way to do, even if it is the only practical solution in the industry.

I agree.

School is designed to turn us into well behaved, reasonably well educated workers.

It just doesn't suit some kids. You can't give a massive amount of individual attention when you have 30 in the class, or even 12 in a class. It's not 1 2 1.

When people talk about home education on here, they always go on about the social aspects. The social aspects are easy - there are loads of activities kids can do outside education. What is less easy to replicate is getting used to petty officialdom. We all need to be able to tolerate things like (unfair) parking tickets, and silly school rules prepare us for that.

For what it's worth it sounds like the OP's son is NT (it's normal not to want to do things that are boring!) and will learn to conform in time. But yes it's a struggle for some kids who don't learn to conform. And of course there are issues such as bullying or having special needs that a mainstream or any school just can't accommodate.

@Gentleness yes that's a good point about the different ways of "wanting" to do things. My DS will "want" to do his homework when he knows he's getting something fun at the end (screen time, a sweet, or if we're then off out somewhere fun, etc). It's still not his first choice of something to do but the incentive is there. As adults we can be more sensible (hopefully) about the incentives and they don't always have to be material (although I still have to inwardly bribe myself, for example hang the washing out then sit down with a cuppa) nor immediate like you say. It sounds like your DC are doing very well which is lovely.

The lego example I gave was just an example - if my DS had lego on the mat there would be zero concentration on what was being said as he'd become engrossed in it, whereas now apparently although he doesn't look like he is concentrating on the teacher, he is taking the lesson in as he'll answer questions correctly.

I have to say we've had a much more positive morning with DS today. He has been full of attitude the last couple of weeks, and it's felt like every little task is a battle and met with "no" and attitude, so that has obviously crept back into school (in March, his teacher said this had improved, but the impression I got yesterday was it had crept back again, although when I pressed she said "the same or maybe slightly better").

However I had a big chat with him last night, I explained all of the possible outcomes I could think of to try and get him to see others' perspectives (for example if you are delaying your whole class from going out to play because you're taking too long to put your coat on, then your friends will get cross with you and not want to play with you), said that I want to see him doing what we ask at home first time without refusing (and explained that we only ask him to do things that are important, teeth brushing, sun cream, bath etc) and essentially said there would be zero TV if we get refusal.

Whether he is ND or not, it can't go on especially as he has been so tricky the last couple of weeks. Bedtime last night was plain sailing, this morning he has been great, and I said I would be asking his teacher directly at the end of the day how he has been. And if not "compliant", no TV.

I constantly worry that I'm too strict and that this is why he's oppositional, to worrying that I'm not strict enough and this is why he acts spoilt.