"School is just not a good fit for all children"

[Postcovid]

Do you agree? My DS is finishing Year One, and although he is bright, has a good work ethic and concentrates well on his set tasks, he just resists a lot of the conforming needed and when asked to do simple things like put his coat on before going out to play, or especially when moving on from playing to a work task (his class use a carousel format, so of course some tasks/games are more fun than others). His teacher has to count down/threaten to remove gold stars, and he always eventually makes the right choice but rarely the first time.

At home he is always asking "why" when asked to do something or not to do something. When given an explanation, he usually complies. However when he asks "why" in school, of course his teacher doesn't have the capacity to answer every time. I've spoken to him about this sort of thing at length, explained it's the teacher's rules in the teacher's classroom, that he must do as she asks etc. He tells me sometimes it's when something will be boring, he says he doesn't want to.

FWIW yes we have considered neurodiversity and he has recently been referred for assessments, but we will be waiting years. And also yes, I fully understand it makes the teacher's job tricky when she has 29 other children to teach. But on the flip side, I understand not wanting to conform all the time, and not to do things without trying to find out the reason. I'm hoping it'll stand him in good stead in terms of not succumbing to peer pressure when he's older. But I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

I feel that more and more, schools expect 30 children to act like robots and conform to everything on demand.

I feel that this is likely to be an exaggeration based on the experience of one child with one teacher.

From your latest post, he sounds fine. Fairly typical for end of Year One, in fact. No real issues at home or with activities like Beavers, a bit dreamy and a questioner - all fine. You can’t really expect school to give you massively frequent ‘behaviour updates’ - the teacher’s response of ‘ok, fine’ likely means, you know - fine! If they haven’t raised any issues then perhaps they don’t consider that his behaviour is at all unusual?

Assessments can't fix a bad environment. That's one of the things wrong with primary ASN provision, adding TA time etc if you're lucky and you get that can't fix fundamental issues like lack of structure, rapid transitions, inability to stay regulated at school, noise, too many children in the class and/or playground.

But her school is one of the first in our area focusing on what they call PBL - project based learning and there's a lot of group project work done in every subject including maths where they bring lots of cross curricular elements together, with a lot of reflection and writing about their experiences

I think a lot of schools were giving this a go a few years ago and they tended to end up in RI… I think it’s a lovely approach, but unfortunately I’m not an OFSTED inspector. Now they’ve brought in ‘deep dives’ and you have to show clear and explicit progression and teaching key knowledge and skills for each subject, so things have to be much more regimented. It’s then hard for schools to follow this kind of project based approach.

I would absolutely support any teacher who enforced natural consequences with my DS, in fact I said it to her today - if he says no then tough luck, you’re not going out to play/you get cold etc. I’m sure you will get parents who would complain, but I’ve always been clear that I support consequences for him.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the teacher to expect him to do these things, because it’s her job, but equally some “why” questions (not for the simple, coat type issues, but more perhaps “why do I have to do xyz when that group is playing the game/on the iPads/building Lego”) might be reasonable, but some teachers won’t want to respond. DS appears to get FOMO as he will knuckle down well with work when everyone is doing the same, but as they use a “carousel”, he (like any 6 year old, surely) prefers the fun activities.

The conforming isn’t just about that sort of thing, either, DS doesn’t like to sit on the mat, cross legged, because he finds it uncomfortable, yet he is expected to do this - I’ve asked about alternatives such as sitting at a table for over a year and it’s never been accommodated. Thankfully Y2 apparently don’t have the room for sitting on the mat so it’ll be at tables!

In terms of why I’m raising it, there’s been low level disruption on and off since DS was young, it’s been very inconsistent so hard to pin down. And very low level, only mentioned when I’ve gone and asked the teachers directly, I’ve only ever been pulled aside twice since the beginning of reception - once at the very beginning of YR as he had kicked someone at playtime (very unlike him) and then one other time as he’d been acting up in his Year One class. Otherwise, I have approached teachers about things my DS has told me. The SENCO was happy to refer him on though so it’s not that I’m imagining things!

I agree with this.

Obviously the best schools and teachers will be open to discussion with students, explain things well so no one feels like they’re living in a totalitarian state etc but in principle, learning when to conform and when to make a stand is a useful skill in itself.

I never really understand this whole we all have to do things we don’t want to do philosophy, it’s a very rare day when I don’t do exactly as I please because I’ve set my life up that way and I would imagine that most people would have the opportunity to do that.

The workplaces comparison does make me chuckle, but I work in the public sector where fully grown adults get away with bloody murder. I am very swotting and so get very annoyed with some of the ridiculous behaviour that’s accepted from adults!

Well done Dalaidrama! That must feel very satisfying.

I mean a side of the usual safety/legal stuff which is just absolutely non-negotiable, but I don’t think kids learn to not drink and drive or not shoplift by being indoctrinated into lining up outside a classroom and ensuring you have your coat on before playtime.

Wow. You’re very lucky or privileged, in that case. Most people have to do things they don’t want to do on a pretty regular basis. In order to have the opportunities not to, you need wealth, education, etc.

Lucky you. Do you work and love every part of your job? Genuine question

I work with (older) children who have been excluded from school. Our Deputy Head is something of a behaviour guru locally and does a lot of work supporting schools with behaviour.

A recent newly appointed Head has introduced a zero tolerance behaviour policy which, he says, suits 80% of children. That may possibly be true, but it still means he's setting up his school so that 20% of children will fail 😥 And ime, most of those will be boys.

I agree with you OP that depending on the child's personality school is fantastic for some kids and rubbish for others. That is not intended as a criticism of teachers as clearly schools don't have infinite resources and have to provide an environment which works well for the majority of children but it's ridiculous to deny that the environment and regime does not work well for a significant minority of children and its not just those who are neurodiverse

My DD thrived at school, never questioned the rules, was motivated to do well and enjoyed the social aspects too. My DS 'survived' school and consistently underachieved from being about age 7, he hated the rules and being forced to study subjects he had no interest in and none of the conventional 'performance management' strategies uses by the schools seemed to help. He scraped through 5 GCSEs at grade 4/5 to get a place at college on a course he wanted to do (not A-levels).

I would not have the patience to homeschool and would not have been in a position to give up paid work so I never seriously considered it. We all got through it but it was extremely stressful at times and it was a huge relief for all when he left school!

Plus the overwhelming majority, even the keen ones, wouldn't turn up if they weren't being paid to be there.

Your ds find sitting on the floor uncomfortable? I doubt many children find it that comfortable. However children often sit on the floor during class time, assembly time etc. I would not allow a child to sit on a chair in assembly because they are uncomfortable. Can you imagine? Every child would go home and say they didn't want to sit on the floor and I would suddenly have to set 300 chairs up for assembly and not do maths.

The only reason I allow children to sit on a chair during carpet time is if they have a medical reason or they have fallen and cut their knee.

No of course not I don’t relish every moment of it, but I am doing it because I want to do it and if I didn’t want to do it I wouldn’t. And my life is always been that way from when I’ve worked as a waitress, bar maid etc. I had a wonderful grandparents he literally said if a job is worth doing it’s worth doing properly and if you don’t feel that way about something find something else to do it’s served me very well in life.

The bar job for example I kinda knew I was gonna end up having to get one of those so instead of working in the kings head on the High Street I was a barmaid in Ibiza. Same role different environment very different outcome in terms of do I want to get out of bed in the morning.

I hope I’ve passed this on to my children.

Most people have to do things they don’t want to do on a pretty regular basis. In order to have the opportunities not to, you need wealth, education, etc

I agree with Nothappy. For me, doing what I want to do - for work, in my life - is a priority, and I'll be very happy if that's something my DC take forward with them.

My ethos is do something you love, exceptionally well and work hard at it, so people pay you to do it.

Wealth helps in every bit of life, education is vital for all, but developing a personal ethos that serves you throughout life, to help you build the life that makes you happy, is even more important.

What's RI?

I'm not sure what the system where we are for assessing the effectiveness of schools but there's no national equivalent of OFSTED. We have local school boards which make up their own systems and guidelines on a COUNTY level.

Which is odd to me being from the UK. There's lots of standardized testing every term though - 3 different assesments three times a year, so I assume there is some sort of league table based on that.

I guess we'll see in a few years if the PBL system is doing anything negative to the test results in general. Seems to be working okay for my DD though so far.

Their classes are not too crowded -about 17-20 kids in each class.

it’s just about reframing it in your mind and that is kind of where I think the school massively miss a trick maybe parents day too. I’ve had my share of shitty jobs but I’ve always ensure that I got something out of it that wasn’t money.

If you are literally doing the job for money only you’re gonna be bloody miserable whether you are earning 200 grand or 200 quid.

Kids with poor core strength can struggle with sitting cross legged on a carpet for any length of time.

I don’t disagree with the personal ethos of prioritising your own happiness at work, in life etc. However it is definitely luck or privilege which means you don’t ever have to do something you don’t like and it would be naive to pretend otherwise. I can think of absolutely tons of situations where that ethos, as vital as it no doubt is, wouldn’t make the reality different.

@Sherrystrull it’s far from unusual for a ND child to find sitting on the floor particularly uncomfortable, even painful. The sensory issues around the ground, being in such close quarters to others (and they really are shoulder to shoulder, nose to back), not to mention common mobility issues such as a weak core, hyper mobility. The SENCO today actually pointed out that because my DS is unusually tall, it’s very noticeable when he is fidgeting on the mat as opposed to smaller DC. The issue here is his concentration, which on the mat is poor compared with at a table. I imagine because the sensory complications are distracting, coupled with being pulled up every time he fidgets (at a table you can swing your legs freely without being disruptive). I cannot sit still in a meeting at work at the age of 38; I pen fiddle, move my legs a lot etc.

I've adhd and asd and your son sounds very like I was as a child. If something didn't make sense, then I wouldn't want to do it, if it was boring then it was the same and if I didn't like the teacher then that just made it worse. I was always more likely to comply and not question if i liked the teacher.

May be teacher should reward him when complying in a little way rather punishing him by counting down when he isn'@t complying.

Have you looked into Steiner or Montessori?