To be worried about Rainbows

[justanotherguider]

As a guide leader and as a mother I find this worrying:

girlguiding.foleon.com/guiding-magazine/guiding-summer-2022/rainbow-girl

Exactly what I thought when I read this, @HappyAsASandboy. At 18 months my daughter was coming out with quite a few words but she was a long, long way from speaking fluently about anything abstract. My son didn't speak until he was 2.5. I just don't believe this poor little kid was displaying signs of gender dysphoria at 18 months old.

'Rainbow' has socially transitioned now. This article from Transgender Trend explains very clearly why this is not a bening thing to do to a child. www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/ What happens at puberty?

This is my biggest worry! Rangers is the next section after Guides and teens love to experiment. Imagine sending your Ranger on a camp and they came back pregnant. The penis in the tent soon becomes more of a risk, when it's not in a predator way, just a teens being teens way 😬

I'm really alarmed to see it set out on this thread how leaders are unable to express alternative views on this for fear of being kicked out. As a parent of a nearly guide (just finished Brownies where this issue didn't arise. Fairly old-school leaders there) is there anything I can do? Is there any point in parents contacting HQ/ divisional leaders?

Did the Katie Alcock case (which I only vaguely followed via MN, I don't have twitter or Facebook) not mean they had to change their policies?

The autonomy over her own identity.

Another leader here - relatively new.

My jaw hit the floor reading that newsletter. I agree with a lot of what's been said above by others. "We're all the same on the inside" - why are boys not accepted then?

I'm in total disagreement with GirlGuiding over this, but I'm another one keeping quiet until it directly affects my unit. I am so attached to my brilliant girls, some of whom have serious problems at home and get so much stability from their evening at Brownies. It would break my heart to walk away and let the unit close (again). But if I'm pushed any further on this, I will have to.

I've also just been told by a parent that the words of the Brownie law have changed from "herself" to "themselves" (the ones we learned don't match the website apparently)...... not sure when that happened....

I've just checked the gguk website.
It depends which bit you look at, but it does appear the law wording has been changed!

Didum - but you can’t have ‘autonomy’ over your identity when it comes to sex, it’s not something you can choose or change. You can, of course, have autonomy over your clothing, hair etc. I’d argue that 7 year olds shouldn’t have much ‘autonomy’ though as they are young, inexperienced and need guidance. Eg my children never wanted to wear sunhats, but I made them wear them because it was in their interest, wearing skirts or trousers didn’t matter unless trousers were the practical option for long, cold dog walks.

I didn’t say you can change sex, I said you can change gender. You can ‘FACT’ me all you like, but unfortunately (for you) this organisation, and plenty of others in increasing numbers, are not in agreement with you.

There is no autonomy over one's sex and which puberty one will go through, if nature is allowed to take its course.

I didn’t say you can have autonomy over sex, I said you can have autonomy over gender (actually I said identity, but let’s not split hairs). And let’s not equate expression of identity to risk of skin cancer - not comparable.

Once again, I didn’t say autonomy over sex, I said identity.

Didum - it’s true that the very small number of paid people that ‘run’ guides have been totally captured. I don’t believe that the majority of volunteers have though. What is clear is that the more vehemently people try to force the majority to believe fallacies and the more sunlight is shone on the trans industry the more people are starting to speak out to protect children from sterilisation and womens single sex spaces. In fact the aggressive nature of the trans lobby is harming some of the people they claim to speak for.

@didimum why are you so adamant that this child abuse is not child abuse? Because it is child abuse. No 18 month old can choose their gender. They don’t even know the difference whether they are a boy or a girl in any meaningful way at that age. This child is in for either a world of pain due to puberty blockers (see jazz Jennings for an example of this), or a world of confusion when he hits puberty. This is solely the parents choice. This is child abuse. Why are you condoning it? .

Yep, I'm quite new to Brownies so I thought I'd got it wrong, but it has definitely changed. An announcement would have been nice so I didn't look like an idiot in front of the parents!

It's impossible to change sex. Accepting one's sex is as important for mental health as accepting one's sexuality and coming to terms with all the other unalterable things about the body and personality. I have no idea what it means to have an identity founded on a refusal to accept reality.

Last time there was a major change (to the promise) there was a full consultation with the membership- we discussed it with the guides & rangers- this has just appeared.....

Maybe - just maybe - some people are exposed to the same information that you are yet form a different opinion. Shocking, I know.

Once again, I didn’t say sex. Do I have to say it a fourth time for the people in the back?

I am condoning something I don’t view as child abuse. It’s really quite simple. I understand that you do. That’s cool - you do you.

Didum- I know you said ‘identity’ but there is only sex and personality, gender is just a collection of shifting stereotypes, it’s not something I follow, much as I don’t believe in souls or spirits. Only some people believe that people can ‘identify’ as something that they aren’t. I will always treat people politely if I meet them and address them how they wish, but how they identify themselves is generally irrelevant to me and pretty boring unless it impinges on safeguarding or the rights of another group.

My 9 year old mentioned the word "lesbian" the other day.
I asked her where she heard that term as I have done no sex education with her and as far as I am aware they have not done anything about it in school .

She said school and they had a talk about accepting everyone? It's a Catholic 🏫?

Thanks for your opinion. That is not my opinion. We can not agree with eachother - it’s fine.

You don't view it as child abuse. I do. These parents have lied to their child. They and other adults in the child's life have told the child that a change of name and clothing choices mean everybody now knows this child is the opposite to the sex he was born. Meanwhile, he continues to have a male body and is on course to have male puberty. Eventually reality will have to intrude. Medical intervention in the form of puberty blockers, cross-hormones and surgery will not make a male body into a female one.

I literally said I understand you view it as child abuse. I don’t have to agree with you, however much you’d like me to. You aren’t providing me with new information. I just don’t agree with you. It’s OK - we can have different opinions.

@didimum if the parents starved their child because they said their 18 month old had expressed the idea that they were fat, would that be child abuse or would you condone that? If the child was convinced it was a dog and the parents fed it dog food and walked it on a leash would that be child abuse or would you condone that? If the child said it wanted to get married and the parents allowed it, would you condone that? Why would a child that age, who does not reliably know what it wants to be when it grows up, decide with such certainty it is the opposite sex unless the parents influenced the child. If you can’t see this is child abuse I feel very sorry for your children