To be worried about Rainbows

[justanotherguider]

As a guide leader and as a mother I find this worrying:

girlguiding.foleon.com/guiding-magazine/guiding-summer-2022/rainbow-girl

Children only "know" that certain clothes, hairstyles and toys are 'for girls' because their parents (and the media, etc) TELL them so.

Feminists have spent our lives trying to tell the world that the only way you're male or female is to be born so; now, however, we've got the notion that liking x makes you x, even if you're REALLY y.

That kid doesn't "know who she is" because that kid's parents think 'gender' = external associations.

Also I think the question of whether Gillick competence applies in this situation is a very complicated one, both morally and legally.

It's an important principle and it needs to be taken into consideration. But it's nowhere near as simple as "oh, Gillick competence says that under-16s are allowed to make their own medical decisions" because it is nowhere near that simple.

It's interesting that Gillick competence arose from a question of contraception being supplied to young people without parental consent. Whatever one's feelings about young people being sexually active without informing their parents, access to contraception is quite a clear-cut example of something that is widely used, well-evidenced, is usually extremely safe, is easily and entirely reversible, and can prevent teenage pregnancy--which could itself have lifelong negative effects on a young woman, given the physical risks of pregnancy and the societal and financial hurdles that mothers (especially young and potentially single ones) face.

Aside from the emotive "better a trans child than a dead one" argument which may or may not be backed up by statistics specific to a UK contextpuberty blocking treatment and gender transition are very different in all aspects.

So, again, it's not clear-cut that Gillick competence can simply be slapped onto it.

I'm more worried about school since that's most of their life which is most of their influence, while Rainbows/Brownies is a couple of hours a week at maximum.

The thing that pisses me off in that 'Rainbow' could gave joined Beaver Scouts, which is open to both boys and girls. But no, it had to be a group for girls didn't it, so the parents can tell everyone.

We've had this recently too. Like an 'information session' No advance warning. No other such information sessions. It's really quite disturbing.

Exactly. And now 'Rainbow' has had it made harder for him to go back to identifying as male. Doing so would mean he would have to leave Rainbows/Brownies/Guides and walk away from a loved activity, from friends. If he had joined a mix sexed group like scouting or the woodcraft folk one, the door would have stayed open - he could return to identifying as male and continue to attend.

Luckily 99% of parents will be ignoring this nonsense

Turquoise isn't girly enough.

The Scouting programme is better than the updated Girl Guiding version. Girl Guiding is now navel gazing and talking about going for a walk. Scouting just goes for a walk. There is some flexibility, but when you have to spend 60% of your time doing death by activity cards so your girls can get their badges/ awards, there's a lot less time doing random adventures than there once was.

I have sons. When they were younger they tended to accompany me in accordance with the policies on Leaders' Children. Fair enough. But all it takes is the words "I am a girl" and all transparency goes out of the window along with requiring appropriate facilities.

Girl Guiding went the wrong way on Trans inclusion. It should have stayed single sex and supported female bodied "trans-boy" members to help them understand the great things that females can do when stereotypes don't hold them back.

I really hope that these policies are resolved before I ever have to face it as an issue in my unit.
One of my son's peers is identifying as the opposite gender and has changed identity. His friend's older sibling has taken physical measures to transition. It's not just hypothetical.

They were already self harming. I saw these people agonise over the best thing to do. They did the best they could with the information they had at the time. It was at least five years ago - before most people even heard of it! I know the parents yearned for them to get it out of their system and left every possible door open. It was heartbreaking.

‘Children’ do make sexual health decisions. An under 16 taking contraception is a case in point. Childbirth can also result in pain, incontinence etc etc and is frankly utterly life changing, and similar age ‘children’ are making decisions about that. No one is saying their parents should be ‘putting a stop’ to their sex lives. That’s where Gillick competency comes in. You can’t say they can do it for childbirth only, surely?

I acccept that I have a sample of three, personally known to me. How many de-transitioners are personally known to you? (I‘m not going to accept a Reddit group as indication of anything but a hot topic). I’m absolutely NOT saying they did the right thing. I’d hate to be held to some of the decisions I made as a teen! I can see exactly why it’s controversial. But I know that they tried so hard to, and I know what a heart rending process it was. And my experience through them (and the two others I know) is nothing like what people are saying they think happens. So then I’m wondering what else they get wrong. Because I know that some of it IS wrong. The ‘anti-trans’ stuff people come out with has such a hysterical, bigoted tone, and yet this young person in particular has dealt with it with a level of fortitude, maturity, stamina and cheerful matter of factness that I’m honestly astounded they were capable of. I’m having a lot of trouble reconciling the two in both fact and attitude, and not coming down on their ‘side’.

I'm not trying to tell you that your friends didn't try hard and that it wasn't a difficult process for them @Eeksteek But I do think that children should not be allowed to make these decisions.

When you say no one is trying to put a stop to children's 'sex lives', that's not the case. We have an age of consent - 16. Yes, children can decide to take contraception - but contraception is generally safe and well understood, and the lesser of two evils. A girl who gets pregnant at 13 or 14 could make the decision to have the baby, yes, and that would be risky, but at least we understand the risks and have good experience of mitigating them. In the UK at least, she would likely be encouraged to have an abortion. But with puberty blockers and hormones, we are running an experiment on children, and the early results are not looking good.

If you take a look at r/detrans, you will see post after post after post from very young people asking questions like whether their atrophied testicles will become normal again, or whether they will ever get their voice back, or how they can ever forgive themselves for what they've done to their bodies. It is heartbreaking.

I'm glad your young friend is doing so well, and hope very much that this continues to be the case. I hope that they won't regret that they can't have a sex life, or kids, and that they don't end up living in horrible pain. I hope they'll be well and happy for life. That doesn't change the fact that they should never have been allowed to go on experimental medication as a child. If an adult wants to medically or surgically transition, then that's absolutely their decision and they have every right to make it. They presumably understand the massive risks they're taking and what they have to lose. Children cannot understand this. If you don't know what it is to have an orgasm, how can you agree to never having one? If you haven't got through puberty, how do you know that you don't want your penis? At age 14, how can you decide you never want to have kids of your own? Children should not be allowed to make irreversible decisions like this.

This person was an adult when he transitioned. Think how much less equipped actual children are to make these kinds of decisions.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10953157/Man-suing-NHS-trans-surgery-regrets-bravely-waived-anonymity-share-ordeal.html

I left Guiding over this issue
I had run a Guide unit and a Rainbow unit for 20 years

I did tell my Commissioner why but I am told she did not make that public,in fact according to the minutes of the district meeting I was struggling from stress

Eeksteek you might want to re-read my point about Gillick competence, which was that it was established for young people to have access to birth control--medical treatment which has several points that are completely different from treatment for gender dysphoric young people. You are drawing a parallel with the opposite of birth control.

And, again, your anecdotal knowledge of one or three transitioner does not carry more weight than existing detransitioners. It doesn't carry less weight, either--the young people you know in this situation are also important and need support. And maybe they have followed exactly the right path in their lives, we need to acknowledge that some will make this choice.

But it's not logically sound to throw aside one "small number" of young people with actual lived experience because it doesn't fit in with the lived experience of the one (now three) individuals you support. Both are valid.

My nephew was the only boy in his mums group of friends, they all had girls. He played with pushchairs and Barbies, and all the other "girlie" stuff that their mums thought they loved.

At home he still played with his Barbies and stuff, but also cars and other things. It's what kids do, they don't have to like certain things to be girly or boyish.

It really annoyed me when my granddaughter was born that all girls toys were pink.

@beastlyslumber I do take your points. What I can’t get past is that for child I personally know, I really think this was also the lesser of two evils, and that puberty is so central to gender development, that it makes the involvement of children unavoidable (if you accept that it is possible to be truly transgender, of course).

I’m not trying to convince anyone. I’m just finding it hard to reconcile this experience with other peoples views. (And perhaps provide a little balance)

@CousinKrispy Indeed. The plural of anecdote is not data. I’m just trying to share that in my actual (if vicarious) experience of transitioning teens (one I know well, and followed the process quite closely with. Two are much more private) is very different from other people’s impressions of the process. I’m genuinely curious about how these impressions are formed, and whether what I’ve seen is the anomaly, or if everyone else’s experience is anything but first impressions and Daily-Mail fed hysteria. Because if I hadn’t seen it so closely, I think I’d feel similarly. I did initially. I’m hoping to pass on some of that depth, I think.

You can bet your life I’d be tearing the evidence apart if it were my Tween exploring her gender identity, though.

I obviously don't know if you're right about that particular child. I am talking in terms of principles. Even happy and well adjusted TW like Blaire White are against child transition. I don't see any grounds for making exceptions- the risk of getting it wrong is too devastating. And not allowing children to go through puberty is going to have so many physical and emotional consequences that we can't even foresee.

I am so angry about this, and those in the movement that support it.
no way I could stand by and allow it. It’s blatant abandonment of safeguarding and bloody dangerous.
I know many in the movement agree, but you need to stand up to this nonsense, en masse, and bring some common sense to bare.. if enough of you do, the cowards will back off and you’re lovely, safe, groups can return. I hope.

Girlguiding has really gone to shit in the last 5-10 years, and volunteers and staff have been treated abysmally. It’s no surprise they’ve gone this far with the sections.
Honestly Girlguiding has had its day.

Sadly I think GG are being very poorly served by HQ at the moment.
They're losing members and Leaders. The push for inclusion is in theory great but in practice yet more of a burden on volunteer leaders as there's bugger all support from HQ for it. There's lots of headlines and twee graphics but then when push comes to shove and you have girls with often multiple needs in your unit and ask for help from HQ there isn't any. Meanwhile parents are being demanding and pushy.
One of my friends is a Guide leader and a teacher, she's commented that at school they have a system by which any safeguarding incidents are logged and shared with other agencies. No such system in GG. In fact until fairly recently, if a girl changed units because of issues, or moved between say Guides and Rangers and had been tricky, you weren't supposed to tell the next unit, to give the girl a clean start.
Yesterday on Facebook, GG latest ill considered post was about the cost of living crisis and telling parents to go to unit leaders for help with getting subs reduced and information about grants. Without offering any information up front to units about these grants. There were dozens of furious comments from Leaders, it's not a rich organisation at grass roots and some units barely scrape by. Plus every unit has to pay an annual subscription to GG which has had a massive hike this year due to loss of income from Covid. This has to be paid per person in the unit, including a payment for Leaders and other volunteer helpers. (Scouts don't charge their Leaders) Guide Leaders are becoming very disillusioned.

@Eeksteek I'm genuinely not trying to be goading or anything, but it comes across that you may think that many of us GCs have no actual experience of our own with trans identifying children/teens/young adults/adults (forgive me if I'm interpreting that incorrectly!). However, many of us are friends, siblings, parents, partners to them, and/or work with them via schools, social work, extra curricular groups or charities (I personally fall under a few of these!). We haven't come to GC conclusions by reading the Daily Mail (!), and we've been talking about gender ideology and the impact on children far longer than 5 years (in my case at least).

Alluding to concerned women, with carefully considered opinions and experiences, being 'hysterical' about this issue is misogynistic.

waterbabys
Would completely agree. I have very close experience of a child strongly identifying as a boy (born female) for several years. Family accepted a name change, and the child desisted entirely by choice a few years later. Also 40 years ago. This is nothing new. Kids have been experiencing gender 'identity' issues for a very long time. It's part of growing up for very many people. What we didn't have in the 70's/80's was medication and mass media. Despite what activists now might think what a lot of people did have were loving and supportive families who let their kids grow up and work it out. Which is also why the desistance rate was something like 90%.. the small number of people whose dysphoria wasn't resolved by puberty and the realisation that they were gay probably would now be better supported with medication and affirmative surgery than was available then.
I have a teenage DD and can see a swathe of teenage girls mired in gender ideology and just hope they come out the other side unharmed.

‘Treat us respectfully and just the same as any of the other girls, because on the inside we’re all the same really!'

said Rainbow, but really said no 7yo ever. The poor boy has clearly been brainwashed by his insane parents. And shame on GirlGuiding for letting this happen. Girls need girl-only spaces away from boys. It's good for them.

This is a psychologist's warning about the harm that adults do to young children when they "affirm" a belief that the child is the opposite sex in opposition to the reality of the child's body. The psychological damage is massive:

www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Yes, shame on Girlguiding. They've ruined what was a great organisation with this ridiculous support of sex stereotyping; somethign they were supposedly all about combating.