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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That this transgender person..

613 replies

ClassSize2022 · 20/07/2022 05:11

Should not have been in the ladies changing room? Especially if naked from the waist down.

I can imagine being very frightened in this situation as a biological woman having to share a changing room with a man.

NHS transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802

transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802 Times article

OP posts:
Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 08:51

If trans activists are thinking this case is a win then they're not thinking far enough ahead. This is not a win for trans acceptance.

The females in that hospital who were exposed to a penis against their will will be full on TERFS now. Decent people reading about it will understand quite well why there was a penis on display when the TW had agreed to get changed in a cubicle.

I think they'll be thinking twice about ever hiring a trans person again. I think many people reading that case will not want to be put in the position those managers were....

Sunbun19 · 20/07/2022 08:52

Flaunch · 20/07/2022 06:29

Penises have no place in woman’s spaces regardless of how they identify.

Just envisaged a penis with a little hat and glasses walking into a ladies changing room

Namechangehereandnow · 20/07/2022 08:52

Agree with those saying penises have no place in womens areas. There was a case recently of a TW patient on a female ward who raped another female patient. It was covered up by the hospital and Trust for over a year - hospital stance was “we have no males on this ward, therefore rape could not have happened” ….. Clearly a pp poster was correct - men need to control their penises.

Ffs, start protecting EVERYONE’S rights NOT just transgender rights!

RenegadeMatron · 20/07/2022 08:53

bellinisurge · 20/07/2022 08:39

Predatory lesbians I have encountered in my long life: zero
Predatory men I have encountered in my long life: too many to count

And even if there were (I have never encountered one), I wouldn’t feel as physically threatened by them, because they’d be ~ my size.

Whereas I know I absolutely would be over-powered by any man, even by a man smaller than me (I’m taller than many men).

This ^^ (among many other things) is what so many TRAs and their supporters don’t get. Especially males.

They do not understand what it is like to be a woman, and know that any man out there can over-power you, and - if they want - rape/kill you.

This is why we need our single sex spaces.

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 08:53

Discovereads · 20/07/2022 08:43

It doesn’t say that the TW ever exposed her penis.
”An employment tribunal in Leeds was told that the transgender woman — who cannot be identified – was quizzed by a manager about her underwear after concerns were raised that she had been naked from the waist down in the women’s changing room.”

But it also says
“And on the same day, the employee said she was subjected to “deeply offensive and unacceptable” abuse while in a changing room cubicle, when she overheard a discussion between two female colleagues. The tribunal noted that one colleague said that she was “sick to death of this bloke with a dick pretending to be a woman, who doesn’t even dress like a girl and has facial hair, that thing may rape me and we can drive it out of the department and maybe find a suitable leper colony for it”. Later, the transgender woman said she again found a note in her locker saying “get out tranny”.

So the TW used changing cubicles to dress and undress. She couldn’t identify the colleague that said the above because of the cubicle walls/no line of sight. The changing room also had a shower so likely the TW had a towel wrapped around her between shower and changing cubicle.

If the concerned women had seen her penis, why didn’t they say so? Surely that’s more to the point and damning than saying vaguely “naked from the waist down” which is also true of anyone simply in a towel as they aren’t dressed.

How would they know they had a penis if they hadn't seen it? Most people assume trans folk have the surgery.

Brefugee · 20/07/2022 08:53

can someone link to the decision? i can't find it and the previous link was broken.

From reading this thread it all sounds pretty toxic whichever "side" you're on.

Katjolo · 20/07/2022 08:56

This story and others like it... drives me insane. If you have a child of school age, including Primary, ask to see their policy on this. It is unlikely to be published on their website as it is not statutory but more schools are 'having' to have a policy regardless. I find this of particular interest when in relation to residentials!

Perlunk · 20/07/2022 08:56

The volume of wrong information repeated as fact on this thread is awful.

if you’re going to comment or judge, at least go scan the tribunal report and read what actually was described.

The abuse of the trans person, which the trust accept happened, was repellent and totally inexcusable.

At no point did anyone say a penis was sighted/flashed/flaunted/waved.

The glossing over of actual transphobic behaviours, right along with demonisation of a trans person with invented behaviours, is not OK.

Rainbowbaby13 · 20/07/2022 08:57

Flaunch · 20/07/2022 06:29

Penises have no place in woman’s spaces regardless of how they identify.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

knittingaddict · 20/07/2022 08:57

maiafawnly · 20/07/2022 08:16

It was a shower room, having some element of nakedness in a shower room is understandable. Ive not read the reports fully, but if they worked on an infectious diseases ward having a shower post shift is mandatory. If they were told to use the female communal shower room, it was bound to happen.

However, that female shower room should 100% be a protected space, and if this person was pre surgery, they shouldn't have had it suggested they use the female communal space. I understand they might have felt more comfortable outside of a male shower room, but that doesn't mean the rest of the females using the communal space should be impacted.

Other than creating a 3rd safe space, I'm not sure what the solution is here. The notes are disgusting. People should be allowed to live their lives how they want to - provided its not negatively impacted someone else in a way that doesn't just stem from their own prejudices. But trans rights should also not be at the expense of womens rights.

I just don't know.

Pre surgery?

Very few trans people ever have bottom surgery, so let's not assume that this person was on an kind of "journey" towards becoming a woman. I'm willing to bet that if they were happy shatter the illusion and show their male genitalia to a group of women that they will probably be keeping said penis.

Discovereads · 20/07/2022 08:57

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 08:53

How would they know they had a penis if they hadn't seen it? Most people assume trans folk have the surgery.

Exactly. The women complaining said “naked from the waist down in the changing room” there was no mention of seeing a penis at all. As this TW has not had surgery, if they had actually seen a penis, would they not have you know mentioned it? And you can technically be “naked from the waist down in the changing room” but also in the shower or a cubicle where you may be naked from waist down but not actually visible or exposing your nakedness to anyone else in the changing room.

So I think it’s BS really. The women never saw a penis. If they had, they would have said so.

Clymene · 20/07/2022 08:58

I really recommend that people read the judgement

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/VvSheffieldTeachingHospitalsNHSFoundationTrust1806836-2020___Others.pdf

This person was given permission to change in the cubicle but was naked from the waist down in the communal area. For reasons that are not clear.

In any event, this was a discrimination claim brought by this employee so that is not what was judged on. There was a judgment on 61 individual charges made against the Trust and colleagues, all but two of which were rejected. Several of them were rejected with the note 'Did not happen' by the Tribunal. I leave you to draw your own conclusions about the rest of the evidence.

FOJN · 20/07/2022 08:58

Brefugee · 20/07/2022 08:36

It's a pretty easy fix which worked incredibly well until we decided the feelings of male people were more important than the safety, privacy and dignity of women.

But we are not going to move forward if there are 2 opposing positions of:
a) biological sex only i don't want a penis in my changing women's changing room
b) TWAW and lady penises (penii?) should be allowed in the women's changing room

with each loudly proclaiming the other wrong. TBH i have a certain amount of sympathy/empathy with both positions for various reasons.

How do you reconcile an immovable object up against an irresistable force? Compromise that people are happy/comfortable with. Often i think the choices here come down to:
i) totally enclosed changing cubicles/toilets with floor to ceiling walls/doors and integrated washing facilities where necessary (toilets)
ii) 3rd space where there are bio-male, bio-female and mixed-sex facilities
iii) modesty cubicles for everyone in the gendered facilities (including mixed gender)

The issue isn't transwomen or transmen who have gender dysphoria. The issue is exhibitionists who are taking the piss. They serve nobody well at all except themselves.

What do you mean when you use the word compromise? If it's allowing some males into female spaces then the compromise is made entirely by women for the benefit of males. If that's not your proposal then why is it incumbent upon women to find the solution. I am defending women's rights, not opposing trans rights.

The government can legislate for all the transrights they want providing it does not come at the expense of women's rights. The Equality Act 2010 gives trans people the same rights as everyone else. In this instance the judge decided the claimant had been discriminated against on the basis of gender reassignment but that is incorrect, the issue arose because of the claimants sex not because of their gender identity. There is already case law on this subject.

Women compromised in 2004 when the GRA was introduced and people incorrectly assumed that a GRC gave a trans person the right to be treated as their acquired gender in all circumstances. It does not, there is provision within legislation to lawfully excluded TW and TM from single sex spaces where there is a "proportionate means to a legitimate aim", changing room would meet that criteria so this problem is entirely of the hospital's own making.

Your final sentence highlights the folly of our current path. When enough piss takers cause enough problems there will be a backlash, if there is violence against TW it will be perpetrated by men, as most violence is, but the people with gender dysphoria can't just walk away from their condition anymore than I can walk away from being female. If people actually cared about this group of people they would recognise the harm the piss takers are doing and stop indulging them.

Madamecastafiore · 20/07/2022 08:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ItsAnOvaryAction · 20/07/2022 08:59

Women have a right to get changed for work without male colleagues flashing their penis, whether accidentally or not. Or at least they used to have that right.

It is a particularly interesting issue in the context of healthcare, when even mild incivility at work has been shown to significantly impact one’s ability to safely work. I can only imagine that being flashed or feeling unsafe in the ladies changing room would have an even greater impact on women’s abilities to just do their job.

Transgender people are human and deserving of the same respect and dignity as anyone else. That does not entitle males (whatever their gender identity) to enter women’s spaces. In any other context, if a male is entering a woman’s private space against her consent, he would rightly be considered a predator.

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 09:00

Here's the judgement:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/VvvSheffieldTeachinggHospitalsNHSSFoundationTrustt1806836-2020___Others.pdf

Interesting reading. Clearly the trust absolutely bent over backwards to support this employee.

The employee sounds like an absolute nightmare. I guess they'll be thinking twice about hiring a trans person ever again.

Discovereads · 20/07/2022 09:00

@Perlunk
At no point did anyone say a penis was sighted/flashed/flaunted/waved.

Exactly. It’s saddening how posters are falling over themselves to demonise this TW as some predatory flasher by fabricating events.

Sunfriedegg · 20/07/2022 09:00

This reply has been deleted

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maiafawnly · 20/07/2022 09:01

knittingaddict · 20/07/2022 08:57

Pre surgery?

Very few trans people ever have bottom surgery, so let's not assume that this person was on an kind of "journey" towards becoming a woman. I'm willing to bet that if they were happy shatter the illusion and show their male genitalia to a group of women that they will probably be keeping said penis.

I have nursed a large number of trans people over the years and the overwhelming majority of male to female trans patients have had the surgery. So my assumption was based on my own experiences of the TW I have met.

ChristmasAtHogwarts · 20/07/2022 09:02

I work in the nhs

i work in a very clinical role that involves changing, wearing scrubs etc

I have been there for 12 years and not once has anyone male or female EVER seen my intimate areas

nor have I ever seen my colleagues.

TheFeistyFeminist · 20/07/2022 09:02

I'm particularly concerned that this happened in an NHS Trust. If any organisation was going to be able to understand the importance of science and the very real differences between male and female bodies, I would expect it to be a healthcare organisation.

More than that, the workforce profile of the NHS is overwhelmingly female meaning we ought to be a real consideration when making policy.

We've all got to stand our ground, politely but firmly, and insist on maintaining the single sex spaces that the law provides for us.

Facilities can be gender-neutral, but they must be sex-specific.

SunflowerGardens · 20/07/2022 09:03

Whatever happened or didn't happen, both the women and the transgender person were let down by them being directed to use female changing rooms and not a third space. The trans lobbies really need to rethink their position on third spaces, if only to protect the people they're supposed to be supporting.

Sunfriedegg · 20/07/2022 09:04

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 09:00

Here's the judgement:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/VvvSheffieldTeachinggHospitalsNHSSFoundationTrustt1806836-2020___Others.pdf

Interesting reading. Clearly the trust absolutely bent over backwards to support this employee.

The employee sounds like an absolute nightmare. I guess they'll be thinking twice about hiring a trans person ever again.

Even if I the penis wasn’t flaunted, the woman had a right not to feel threatened or vulnerable. But as usual the male bodied person gets to do exactly what they want whilst womens’ feelings are disregarded.

To quote a woman on Radio 4 this morning, ‘You can either have a vagina or a voice’

PurpleDaisies · 20/07/2022 09:04

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 09:00

Here's the judgement:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/VvvSheffieldTeachinggHospitalsNHSSFoundationTrustt1806836-2020___Others.pdf

Interesting reading. Clearly the trust absolutely bent over backwards to support this employee.

The employee sounds like an absolute nightmare. I guess they'll be thinking twice about hiring a trans person ever again.

This link isn’t working for me.

TheKeatingFive · 20/07/2022 09:05

Facilities can be gender-neutral, but they must be sex-specific

Exactly. We need to be much clearer on this distinction.