That this transgender person..

[ClassSize2022]

Should not have been in the ladies changing room? Especially if naked from the waist down.

I can imagine being very frightened in this situation as a biological woman having to share a changing room with a man.

NHS transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802

transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802 Times article

It was a shower room, having some element of nakedness in a shower room is understandable. Ive not read the reports fully, but if they worked on an infectious diseases ward having a shower post shift is mandatory. If they were told to use the female communal shower room, it was bound to happen.

However, that female shower room should 100% be a protected space, and if this person was pre surgery, they shouldn't have had it suggested they use the female communal space. I understand they might have felt more comfortable outside of a male shower room, but that doesn't mean the rest of the females using the communal space should be impacted.

Other than creating a 3rd safe space, I'm not sure what the solution is here. The notes are disgusting. People should be allowed to live their lives how they want to - provided its not negatively impacted someone else in a way that doesn't just stem from their own prejudices. But trans rights should also not be at the expense of womens rights.

I just don't know.

The way round not seeing a penis in a female changing room is to forbid anyone from getting naked except in curtained off cubicles males from entering those spaces.

It's a pretty easy fix which worked incredibly well until we decided the feelings of male people were more important than the safety, privacy and dignity of women.

I was thinking about the whole changing room thing. They aren’t separate facilities to keep people who might be sexually attracted to each other apart. So it is about not being exposed to bodies of the opposite sex. But I guess some people would argue this is prudish, and we must change that attitude. It’s similar to dick pics. Blokes send them, most women find it either weird (your dick is not attractive) or offensive , some I guess might enjoy looking ? (Yet to meet someone who says they do in real life !). Not sure how to express this. But basically I have no issue whatsoever changing with lesbians, but I would feel funny about changing with a TW who was attracted to men. I don’t want to see your dick ! Tbf it must be so frustrating for TW who are quietly trying to fit in, who change normally without making a song and dance about their willies.

This individual made 50 complaints, they had barley been in their job for 5 minutes and had every intention of being difficult and provocative in order to make a compensation claim!
I’m fed up of hearing posters on this site referred to as Transphobic or Bigoted because they believe in the safety and rights of women/girls/females. XY do not trump the rights of XX and should not be allowed to expose their genitalia (I can’t use the term man/men/he or MN will delete my post 🙄).

The notes are disgusting but I'm willing to bet there were no vulvas on display in that changing room. Is it so hard to go into the shower cubicle wearing pants and remove them with the door closed? Those shower cubicles always have a hook away from the water to hang a towel on. There should be absolutely no instance where there's an excuse to expose a penis in a women's changing room.

They aren’t separate facilities to keep people who might be sexually attracted to each other apart.

Of course they are, essentially. They are there to protect women because most men can be sexually aroused by the sight of naked women.

Other than creating a 3rd safe space, I'm not sure what the solution is here. The notes are disgusting. People should be allowed to live their lives how they want to - provided its not negatively impacted someone else in a way that doesn't just stem from their own prejudices. But trans rights should also not be at the expense of womens rights.

I think this is a good summary of the situation

Have we lost our common-sense? It seems reasonable to me that I can choose who gets naked or semi naked with me or in front of me, I would only choose to do so with someone with whom I was having a personal relationship, not some random person who has just walked into the changing room. I don't want to see some random person's penis, and neither would I want to have to explain constantly why that is the case. I would imagine that a huge number of women also want to choose who they see 'in the nip'.
Why is it that a tiny minority are causing alarm and distress to a majority, why can't the idiots in charge come up with a solution that maintains the dignity of ALL?
FWIW, I don't care if there is a shower in the changing area, I would prefer to have privacy when I am carrying out certain bodily functions , or at least choosing who is with me when doing so.
I'm so fed up with the constant arguments on this and the disdain shown to women.

Having read it, it all sounds like a load of BS.

However, I have huge sympathy for the women in this situation. They were completely unsupported by management, perhaps they felt they had no alternatives.

No males or penis havers in womens spaces EVER

a memo informed trust staff that the woman would use the female changing rooms after she joined the team.*

No asking, no providing a private/third space for the trans woman? Why do women have to shut up and be kind???

There's clearly a lot more to this than has been reported.

I abhor the bullying and the notes.

But I wonder how the TW acted at work...

None of their other complaints were upheld...

But basically I have no issue whatsoever changing with lesbians, but I would feel funny about changing with a TW who was attracted to men.

Me too. I think it's because you just cant trust anyone, and physically I'd be easily overcome by almost any healthy adult male, whereas I could like fight off most woman unless they were unusually muscular. We are more vulnerable when naked/undressed, and we know that, so on a basic level we seek to avoid physical threat.

It's not transphobic to as a woman not to want to have a penis in your changing room.

That's right, women, you must not complain if someone wishes to display their penis while you're getting changed. As Ricky Gervais says, "That's her penis, you bigots!"

Totally this

I think there's 2 issues here.

A male bodied person should not have been in a female communal changing room, where being in a state of undress, and visible to others, was a likelihood. For that, I am not surprised that the female members of staff were angry.

The second issue is the treatment of this transwoman experienced. No matter how angry you are, you do not have the right to harrass someone. The comments made, and the note, were disgusting.

The employer needs to sort out proper provision, and not force females to share sex segregated spaces with males. The employees need a disciplinary.

In my experience Nhs women who wear a uniform generally don't change their underwear in the changing area, if needing to remove underwear (this is unusual but this trans woman had wet underwear or something which is why they took them off? Not sure why they had wet underwear) I expect most women would go into a shower or toilet cubicle. If women shower and there isn't a space in the shower for dry things then they usually hide their body under a towel and manage to not display their genitals to anyone. I would feel embarrassed taking my underwear off in front of my colleagues even female ones. I can only conclude this person was being a bit of an exhibitionist if they didn't use the more private places to remove underwear. If a female did this yes I bet the stage would talk about it amongst themselves and think it weird they want to display themselves in such a way

You don't deal with bullying by allowing someone to wave their cock around in women's single sex spaces. Flashing is a gateway to even more severe sexual offending. I don't care how delicate this bean is, women are not human shields.

The nature of women's genitals is that you don't see their vulva or vagina unless in an intimate situation. Even when undressed in changing rooms you don't see it. There is no such thing as a female penis. You'd think the NHS would know tbat.

They were in a completely non-medical role. They worked in the catering department.

The full judgement is well worth a read. Anyone who scans the headlines and immediately thinks "transphobia!" ought to read the whole document and see what they think then.

In any open changing room, wouldn't you change your underwear in a cubicle or in the loos?
What possible reason could this person have for this behaviour?

Don't think I'm allowed to say.

As usual women are not allowed to have any space free from males.

It's a pretty easy fix which worked incredibly well until we decided the feelings of male people were more important than the safety, privacy and dignity of women.

But we are not going to move forward if there are 2 opposing positions of:
a) biological sex only i don't want a penis in my changing women's changing room
b) TWAW and lady penises (penii?) should be allowed in the women's changing room

with each loudly proclaiming the other wrong. TBH i have a certain amount of sympathy/empathy with both positions for various reasons.

How do you reconcile an immovable object up against an irresistable force? Compromise that people are happy/comfortable with. Often i think the choices here come down to:
i) totally enclosed changing cubicles/toilets with floor to ceiling walls/doors and integrated washing facilities where necessary (toilets)
ii) 3rd space where there are bio-male, bio-female and mixed-sex facilities
iii) modesty cubicles for everyone in the gendered facilities (including mixed gender)

The issue isn't transwomen or transmen who have gender dysphoria. The issue is exhibitionists who are taking the piss. They serve nobody well at all except themselves.

Eh?

It's true!! You just change from your outside clothes to scrubs. With underwear still on!! And sometimes even a tshirt still on if it's very cold