Would a toddler wet himself on purpose to be naughty ?

[Sweaty84]

DS1 is 3 (only just).

He is a handful. Regular meltdowns and puts up a fight over most things. His speech therapist said he is neurodivergent apparently.

We have managed to potty train him, just about. He now does wees in the potty or loo. (Seems terrified of doing a poo in the potty however).

DH has both DS on Fridays and it's always bloody awful. Much worse than all the other days. He always takes the meltdowns personally and it always escalates. DH is never aggressive but he does get v frustrated. I tell him to calm down.

Anyway today our DS has wet himself 6 times. Every time during a tantrum or when he's being told off. All this week he hasn't had one accident until today.

DH says DS is wetting himself as a protest. Like he's being naughty. He is doing it in defiance. This sounds crazy to me. I think he is doing it because today has been horrible where DS is stressed and he needs cuddles and reassurance even if he has just been naughty

I just don't think a 3 Yr old has the thought process to do something like that to get attention or wind us up.

What do others think?

www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-with-pda-menu/family-life-intro/understanding-behaviours/

www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-with-pda-menu/family-life-intro/helpful-approaches-children/

The PDA society also have a brilliant helpline service. They have heard it all, so will have advised loads of families where one parent wants to use traditional behavioural approaches and it's not working. Worth contacting.

OP, I do think a parenting course or something similar would help you even if it’s just to be a bit more confident in your choices. It’s a genuine problem that your dh takes such a different approach but your family taking a different approach isn’t a problem unless they’re involved in day to day childcare. If they don’t have any experience of ND I just wouldn’t worry about that at all. We all do things differently to our parents.

it does sound as if going private for assessment might be beneficial, if only because a diagnosis would help you feel surernof your ground as a parent.

You must meet my 3 year old nephew sometime

@juniperjump Thank you so so much! The supportive posts on this thread have cheered me up.

So DS has had fits due to high temp before but he hasn't for a year. Told it was a febrile seizure by hospital. My MiL told me only recently Dh had same fits when he was little. Also funny you should share that about your DD clothing in weather extremes....as DS wraps the duvet around himself during the night at the mo and wants to wear thick Pyjamas...I have to go in at night and take it all off him as he doesn't seem to instinctly understand how to keep himself cooler. DS talks now but is behind...lots of repeating certain phrases and he really struggles with pronouncing.. fish finger is "linger linger" for example. Apparently DH was the same and actually he kind of still is. For example DH might say Elaine instead of Lorraine or get phrases in the wrong order. I think DH is probs putting his head in the sand as he's a bit sensitive about the similarities.

I will look at all the resources. I just want to feel a little more confident. I'll sit on the floor gently persuading him to get out the bath for an hour if that's what it takes...I just don't know if I should be being firmer somehow. My mum says you must insist he does things but really the only way to make him do anything would be to be physical with him and scoop him up and he gets v distressed when he gets picked up. I guess loss of control.

Sorry rambling now. Just thank you thank you. I think getting support from others is going to keep me sane. He's such a remarkable boy but also v unusual in a way. He likes being alone or just with me and his brother (he's v affectionate to the baby). I just don't want him to struggle but i guess we all just want that.

I think DH is probs putting his head in the sand as he's a bit sensitive about the similarities.

I've been wondering since your first post of I should say this, but my instinct (when you described your DH's insistence on responding with traditional behavioural approaches and him seeming overwhelmed from your description) was that your DH may also be undiagnosed autistic, or have autistic traits.

I say this from my own journey of having realised with a horrible shock after my two were both dx that I am likely autistic too, and that's finally the answer to what's been going on for me the past 40 years. It's both an absolute relief, lightbulb moment, and the most painful upsetting thing ever. (I'm talking about my own, personal experience, other autistics will have a wide variety of experiences.) I'm now a year and a half into a three year wait on the NHS adult autism pathway.

In the past few years autism has become a special interest of mind, first through reading up for my kids, and then for myself. I believe it to be largely genetic, with some environmental influence (before birth). Nowadays when I meet a new autistic child I find myself scanning both parents for traits, curious as to which parent may be autie too! (Not all are, but usually there's an uncle/aunt/grandparent if not a parent.)

It's not easy, at all, for your DH and MIL to have questions, echoes, things rising up in their minds due to seeing how your DS is developing. My DM mentally fought hard against it when my DS was dx. But later she told me she had always worried about me as a child and hadn't known how to help me. She said if they'd known about autism she thinks I'd have been dx too. There was a lot of guilt and processing for her (on her part, not a projection from me) .... the truth is, I've always always know that everyone found me "difficult ", from a young age, and that whatever I tried I couldn't fix it. If you can imagine coping with the level of difficulty your DS has now, yet completely without any concept of neurodivergence and different parenting possibilities other than traditional behavioural approaches.... well, you can imagine how your MIL, for example, might have felt towards your DH. And how your DH may have absorbed it all too. That is not easy stuff for either of them to acknowledge or come to terms with quickly, so perhaps the old default position of "just try harder/be firmer" is still at play. It's also possibly a psychological defence against the pain of accepting DS's differences. It's just as you say, we long for our kids not to have hard lives.

This has turned into an essay! With no practical suggestions for how to help your DH move on from his current approach to your DS. But trying to share what might lie behind his current approach.

Ps - for getting out of the bath - try humour - at that age my DD loved it if we made objects talk: towel starts dancing towards the bath tub, slowly, you do a funny voice, "oh hello DS, I'm Mr Towel, nice to meet you! Have you had a nice bath? What's your favourite bath toy? (Take it v slow, no rush, try to get a dialogue going with DS and the character). Then after a bit ... "I was wondering DS, there's nothing I'd like more than a cuddle. Is there anyone here who can give me a cuddle? Could you? Oh just step this way, come and sit on my lap, ah thank you that's such a nice cuddle, now I'm a happy towel" etc etc. sounds bonkers I know! If DD still refused, we used to get the towel to start sobbing theatrically, she loved it, she felt in control and needed, and powerful. Good luck!

For bed, if he likes the duvet and pjs, try this -

It's a lightweight stretchy sheet, gives nice pressure, kids can feel held and soothed.

https://calmingblankets.co.uk/products/sensory-sheets?currency=GBP&variant=29878479618147&utmmedium=cpc&utmmsource=google&utmcampaign=Google%20Shopping&wickedsource=google&wickedid=CjwKCAjww8mWBhABEiwAl6-2RUue-yCDDmTIaX-HwOOHqR8oAi9NuXwmilpx1Lg4n7oFC-Y5q7qA3hoCPcoQAvDBwE&wickedid=&wv=3.1&gclid=CjwKCAjww8mWBhABEiwAl6-2RUue-yCDDmTIaX-HwOOHqR8oAi9NuXwmilpx1Lg4n7oFC-Y5q7qA3hoCPcoQAvDBwE

Thank you @juniperjump I just tried the trick with getting the scissors to talk to let him cut his nails. He let me do one and thought it was pretty funny. Which is progress as he absolutely hates his nails being cut. I usually do them when he's asleep. Also - his haircut, honestly - Ive got it booked in for next week and it's making me so stressed. He literally thrashes around in the chair, running round the barbers, causing absolute mayhem. They are so kind in there but nothing is going to distract him.

Can I just ask - you've been SO helpful already taking your time to share stuff - so don't want to take the piss but what are your thoughts on screen time?

DS is often in a state of high alert - as so much going on, so many demands...brush teeth, get in the car, eat your food, don't do this etc etc - so much to push back on - and sometimes (like today when it's really hot and it's a sunday) - I give him a tablet and he just plays silly games or watches YouTube Kids. He completely chills out, as he can just lie on the sofa and no one is asking anything of him (and it gives me a break in all honesty) - but could screen time be causing any issues? All during the week - he is at nursery or the park or swimming so he has an active life really but i do use the tablet when he's at home

How do you know?

Most likely is a reaction to something or possibly hasnt been drinking enough? My DS finds it harder to recognise he needs a wee when he’s not drank enough throughout the day (he’s 5 now and it still happens).

You’ll find that when he’s wetting himself on purpose you’ll know - I told my DS there was no iPad for whatever reason and he sat on the next to the bathroom and peed himself

Two of mine used to verbally threaten to wee or poo themselves if something didn’t go their way such as not getting a toy/food they wanted. Then would do it. That was from around 3yo - 4/4.5yo. It is a form of punishment they use as they know you are more inconvenienced by having to clean them/the floor up than they are by having to stand in dirty duds.

That's very unusual, @HoppingPavlova, are they birth children, if you don't mind my asking?

@JanglyBeads ???? Yes, they are biological/birth children, whatever that has to do with it (nothing I suspect). Also not unusual in that from work colleagues alone, over a few decades, I have heard of a few of their (biological) kids doing this so it’s definitely not isolated to me! Also, only some of mine did it, not all.

Of course a child that age can do it for attention.
It sounds as if it is on purpose and then I would make him get changed himself, not rush to do it for him. But not shout at him, do it calmly even if seething inside.
It sounds as if he does need attention, so try to have more positive interactions where you praise good behaviour.

Sweaty84 Why do you need to get his hair cut.

I hated my hair being cut
I would have to be held down for a haircut
At 11 years old my mother said she was giving up.
50 years later I have only ever used a hairdresser twice and that was to dye my hair. (Found out I am allergic to hair dye so won’t be going again)

My Ds has a fear of hairdressers. His dad took him once and never again.

He now allows his dsis to trim his hair. He has always had long length hair.

Why put him and you through all that anxiety and stress for a hair cut