Would a toddler wet himself on purpose to be naughty ?

[Sweaty84]

DS1 is 3 (only just).

He is a handful. Regular meltdowns and puts up a fight over most things. His speech therapist said he is neurodivergent apparently.

We have managed to potty train him, just about. He now does wees in the potty or loo. (Seems terrified of doing a poo in the potty however).

DH has both DS on Fridays and it's always bloody awful. Much worse than all the other days. He always takes the meltdowns personally and it always escalates. DH is never aggressive but he does get v frustrated. I tell him to calm down.

Anyway today our DS has wet himself 6 times. Every time during a tantrum or when he's being told off. All this week he hasn't had one accident until today.

DH says DS is wetting himself as a protest. Like he's being naughty. He is doing it in defiance. This sounds crazy to me. I think he is doing it because today has been horrible where DS is stressed and he needs cuddles and reassurance even if he has just been naughty

I just don't think a 3 Yr old has the thought process to do something like that to get attention or wind us up.

What do others think?

I’m that case, I’d just remove myself. I’d move to another room and leave him to his tantrum. When he’s finished, lead him by the hand and explain in a very simple sentence that he’s going on the step because he hit mum.

It’s common for uncomfortable feeling of needing a wee to trigger a tantrum. Often if they need a poo and are withholding this causes tantrums and then they wet themselves because they don’t want to go to the potty in case they need a wee.

Behaviour during a tantrums is never ‘naughty’ and at this age especially for a NT child they can’t always control their behaviour as they are over taken by emotions.

If a child is suddenly having lots of wee accidents you need to rule out UTI and constipation. Tantrums often have a underlying physical cause (hunger, tiredness, illness) which is the triggered by something else.

I disagree that he is trying. We all make parenting mistakes in the heat of the moment but he isn’t even trying outside the heat of the moment. I’m not saying it’s abusive, there is not enough info here to say that but neither is the opposite true, but you experience abuse as a child so your expectation/instinct of abuse will be out of kilter so you need to consider your partner’s behaviour carefully.

It's really interesting to see the lens through which so many adults see children's behaviour. Behaviour is communication. I think the most productive way to approach this is to work out what's causing the accidents. Meltdowns are usually because little brains become overwhelmed. Shouting and seeing behaviour as 'naughty' is really counterproductive as is putting them in a room by themselves. Your husband sounds like a bully and his approach to managing a small child's dysregulation is counterproductive and damaging.

I don't think DH is a bully. He is genuinely worried about DS joining pre school in September and not being potty trained, hitting other kids, throwing things when he doesn't get his own way. Having said that DS very rarely acts like this with anyone but us. He's at nursery now and we never get complaints. We just get told he's in his own world and does his own thing. But I do agree DH think being stern and telling DS off constantly is way to go and I'm not sure.

Do you have to be toilet trained for pre school?

Given he is at nursery atm and you don’t see this behaviour then I think your Dh is trying to justify his behaviour

For example, this morning I had both of the kids. And DS1 gets it his head he wants to brush his teeth. And becomes obsessed with going upstairs and brushing his teeth. I say no

Instead of saying no this is where I would distract, put the music on and dance around with his sibling.

The distraction technique is about distracting before the escalation.

Massive alarm bells. DH is blaming the child for his own behaviour.

Sounds far more likely the poor soul is wetting himself out of fear.

He’s doing it on purpose. You’re too soft and your husband is too hard on your son. You need a compromise.

What if someone tells Dh that he can’t shout at Ds and he is to be kind and gentle with him and his Ds was misbehaving and wetting himself because he was being shouted at.

Your Dh needs to go back to working 5 days per week if he can’t take on board that his ND Ds needs a different type of parenting and he can only parent in one way and refuse to consider anything else.

This is an interesting thread with lots of conflicting advice and anecdotes. In short, I think you’re probably both wrong and that DS does sometimes wet himself on purpose BUT he’s not being naughty.

Here’s the long version of my POV as the mum of an autistic DS who was very stubborn & prone to meltdowns as a toddler:

To the pp who said a S&L therapist’s opinion is on a par with that of a random guy in a grocery store – an S&L therapist is one of the 3 experts (the others being a paediatrician and an Educational Psychologist) who perform the multi-disciplinary assessment on a child to determine whether or not they are autistic. Their opinion is definitely worth taking seriously.

If he has a speech delay, he may well be more reliant than other 3 year-olds on other methods to help communicate what he wants – some of these might be undesirable behaviours such as pushing, hitting and protest peeing. Working on communication is key. If you need to say no to something, do talk to him, acknowledge his feelings and explain (concisely) the reason. This doesn’t mean pandering to his every whim but he does need to feel heard (otherwise he’ll keep asking!).

The saying goes, ‘When you meet one person with autism, you’ve met one person with autism’, hence why there are wildly differing experiences on this thread. My DS was definitely capable of holding his wee and doing a protest wee at the age of 3. He wasn’t being naughty, he was trying to communicate to me his feelings around potty training – I think it was that he was angry about the change being out of his control and he was worried about getting it wrong.

A pp mentioned the EarlyBird parenting program (designed for parents of autistic DC) – I did it with DH and it was really helpful. Learning about the importance of routines, letting DS know what’s happening in advance, spotting meltdown triggers etc

DH is definitely approaching this in the wrong way – anger and force will get him nowhere. You both need to deal with the bad behaviour in a patient, calm, gentle but firm and consistent way. And if he’s having a meltdown, he’s beyond being reasoned with – if the music doesn’t work each time (well done on that one btw!) put him somewhere safe where he can let the frustration out and calm down. Don’t react or tell him off for a meltdown – it’s a sign he’s overloaded and lost control. Try to find out what his triggers are and look at ways to avoid them. As pp just suggested, distraction before escalation.

It won’t always be like this but do try to get your DH on board or it will be a tougher few years ahead than it need be. Best of luck OP!

V likely that nursery will call you in for a meeting pretty quickly once they notice DC has additional needs. Make sure you take DH along, because he has to hear the hard stuff before he accepts the truth.

your son is scared of your dh he might not be as scary to you but your a fully grown independent neurotypical woman your son is a 3 year old who's reliant on him an potentially autistic there's a power dynamic and he's scared i'm sorry but your husband need a reality check

Fascinating thread to see the chasm in parenting philosophies. OP, I am with you and I think you should have more confidence in your approach. Discipline means to teach not punish and it's perfectly possible to teach your child over time how to behave without punishing them. I don't think you are lenient, the route of good behaviour is connection and he is disconnected from your DH. You can have boundaries eg 'we don't hit mummy'.without resorting to isolation and naughty step. One of my favourite resources is the ahaparenting.com website (lots of resources on tantrums etc).and her books. She's a child psychologist called Laura Markham. Many here proposing 'tough love' approaches without any basis in evidence. I see the Philippa Perry book has also been mentioned, she is also a psychologist and this is a useful resource. Sarah Ockwell.Smith explores psychological evidence in her books and website, again there is guidance here on tantrums which suggest staying close and not ignoring tantrums (her latest one is called How to be a calm parent). Toddlers simply cannot regulate their emotions so the idea that we reward them for responding to them or should punish for them having them is frankly bonkers. Another one I'd really recommend is 'How to talk so little kids will listen' which is so accessible your DH might even be able to take it in. My eldest has been brought up using these no punishment evidence based philosophies and we often get comments on how well behaved she is (including latest school report).

If you believe your child may be nuerodivergent, then why aren’t you getting him assessed to put some proper support in place?

This with bells on. If OP says 'we are waiting to see what pre school say' I will facepalm so hard.

@Didimum @unicormb No need for face palm. I am chasing health visitors but they have no face to face appointments available for weeks. I have a GP appointment in for 2 weeks time (earliest for non urgent appointment) But again trying to push them for it to be face to face. Looking at going privately as research tells me could be months even years. Also some GPs won't even refer at this age. He only turned 3 a couple of weeks ago. I have been seeing a speech specialist for 6 months.

Thank you @nutbrownhare15 so helpful and supportive. Will check out all those resources. Just had nightmare bedtime with DH shouting again and me needing to step in.

If DH doesn't listen to the experts and try some new parenting techniques I will ask him to leave. But if it did come to that it would just result in our DS being more exposed to DHs temper/frustration not less.

It is bloody hard. It took me 40 mins to get him out the bath this evening. It is a true test of patience.

@Sweaty84 get on the therapeutic parenting FB group, it's great for children who are ND and also have a trauma background. Lots of helpful things on there and support/listening circles, resources on how to get partners on side etc.

This
Your ‘D’ H’s behaviour is at fault, I wouldn’t trust him with your DS.

It may have an element of will in it, because he is communicating his distress.

Have a look at therapeutic parenting. Lots about toilet issues used as communication there.

Such differences of opinion on this thread... from DH shouldn't be left alone with DS all the way to DH is 100% right and DS needs to be told off more.

I have read about "demand avoidance" which is DS to a T. But my family would just call that a naughty kid who needs a firm hand.

@Sweaty84 Sorry to hear you had a difficult (to say the least) bathtime. I really feel for you.

When my younger child was 3 it was a furiously hard age, even though we had learned loads of autism support strategies with our older child, it was still a complete nightmare trying to learn what my younger's behaviours were communicating to us about her needs.

Are things usually this bad, or is this weekend/few days more intense than usual?

I wonder if the heat could be exacerbating his dysregulation? My two both have out of whack responses to temperature (interoception). DS gets v overheated and can't recognise he needs to cool down. When you get he would faint, and once had a fit. DD initially processes temperature changes back to front, eg when the weather first heats up she puts a coat on, even in blazing heat. And in snow she insists on bare arms. It gradually settles down, but it's so weird (and also interesting!)

It's great you're seeing a speech therapist. Have they got you working on Makaton / pecs yet, or does your DS not need it?

My DS couldn't talk, but that was actually due to dyspraxia, his language was great, it's just he couldn't form words to use it. Makaton was like a magic, wonderful thing that helped us all hugely.

Hope you're not feeling overloaded with info, just feeling for you at such a difficult stage of family life. I promise that it can get better.

Posted too soon, I've just seen this ...

If demand avoidance is ringing bells, then try PDA strategies and see if they bring relief for DS.

My DD is PDA. I'm not going to lie, it's a very tricky profile. But PDA strategies can help SO much.

It does sound like your DH would struggle to accept it at present though.

Will see if I can post any useful links.