Would a toddler wet himself on purpose to be naughty ?

[Sweaty84]

DS1 is 3 (only just).

He is a handful. Regular meltdowns and puts up a fight over most things. His speech therapist said he is neurodivergent apparently.

We have managed to potty train him, just about. He now does wees in the potty or loo. (Seems terrified of doing a poo in the potty however).

DH has both DS on Fridays and it's always bloody awful. Much worse than all the other days. He always takes the meltdowns personally and it always escalates. DH is never aggressive but he does get v frustrated. I tell him to calm down.

Anyway today our DS has wet himself 6 times. Every time during a tantrum or when he's being told off. All this week he hasn't had one accident until today.

DH says DS is wetting himself as a protest. Like he's being naughty. He is doing it in defiance. This sounds crazy to me. I think he is doing it because today has been horrible where DS is stressed and he needs cuddles and reassurance even if he has just been naughty

I just don't think a 3 Yr old has the thought process to do something like that to get attention or wind us up.

What do others think?

@Lostlostlost3 You know what....I need to be bloody stronger in my views. I don't know exactly what is going for DS but he responds v differently to other kids, his speech is delayed, he hates transitions, and he is obsessive (music, obsessed with it constantly). And I have read the books etc and I know to respond with calm and compassion. Why do I let DH make me doubt myself? It's so just so hard when DS is throwing a chair or pushing me, DH is striding around saying "what am I am f*cking meant to do" and basically saying I'm weak, and the baby is crying and I'm meant to be working! It's so hard to continue being the calm and compassionate one who always responds with patience. Thank you for your comment. I totally agree but I'm doubting myself.

I think it could be a protest wee.

Have you seen him do it? If so, does he look pleased with himself afterwards, like - ha, that will show you, or does he look sad/embarrassed, something like that?

@jefficake I have read that book. I loved it. I also read "no such thing as naughty" which DH mocks everytime I mention it. Can't get him to read anything. He believes in parenting by instinct. I mean my own mums instinct was to beat her kids so perhaps following instincts isn't always for the best!

@Sweaty84 I think I got lucky in that I've worked with children with additional needs for years before my son came along. When he started displaying signs of autism I just switched across to work me.

The tantrums, throwing, etc will stop when his needs are met. Finding out what those are however... my little boy had a tough time at nursery one day this week. He bit a child and pushed one over who bumped their head. I was mortified. The reason he did this was that he was dysregulated and seeking sensory input. He wasn't being cruel or nasty or naughty. We have a sensory routine we do every morning and I wasn't in that morning to do it and boom.

I'm not sure if you are looking for advice but a few things have changed family life for us. Speech therapy via a programme called can-do, occupational therapy and private SALT who set us off with PECs, Charmaine Champ (Google or Facebook her) has a fantastic free company purely supporting toileting needs of children. Our focus has always been on connection and social communication rather than speech. I have devoured information on how to parent a ND child. It is not the same as parenting a NT child so I openly ignore the majority of advice

things will get better.

Of course 3 years can wet themselves as a protest. The example you cite of peeing while on the naughty step could equally be a protest or anxiety or a bit of both.

What 3 year olds can’t do is regulate their emotions, so they need their carers to be calm.

Your Dh is the adult here so he needs to understand that if your son is protesting then your DH can help this by creating a calm environment in which your son will be easier to manage.

There’s no point just saying this to your DH because he probably knows it but won’t admit it. He needs help, I’d give him some books about toddler management to him, and then discuss what he’d like to try.

Yes at 3 can know that if I do this is will cause this to happen.

So he can know, what he wants is mummy, so he knows weeing himself gets mummy, so he does exactly that. Call it what you want but yes they definitely can do that from much, much younger than 3.

And Yes, a 3 year old can hold there wee for long periods, we had one that did at 2.5.

Yes a 3 year old needs to be taught not to push mummy or anyone. He's most definitely old enough to be learning that sort of stuff and should be getting that reinforced at home - you don't put your hands on other people, we use kind hands etc etc.

Your DH needs to learn not to shout, it's horrible and intimidating to a small child. I wouldn't let my DH shout at me so he's damn well not shouting at our DS. He needs to find another way to give a consequence to unkind behaviour.
But yes OP for what ever reason, your DS can be weeing himself on purpose to get the response he wants.

Or she was anxious about her new baby sister maybe ? Not a criticism but at 3 they are so little and cannot process complex emotions - worry/stress can show in many ways.

It's so just so hard when DS is throwing a chair or pushing me, DH is striding around saying "what am I am fcking meant to do" and basically saying I'm weak, and the baby is crying and I'm meant to be working!*

OP this sounds insanely stressful, I really feel for you. How does your DS respond to being held if he’s throwing/pushing? One strategy I’ve used with all my kids (2 NT, 1 ND) when dysregulated is to simply hold them from behind, in my lap if possible, and calmly say ‘Im not going to let you hurt me/your sister/whatever.’ I know some kids can’t tolerate touch in that state though. When they’ve calmed down you can talk about how it’s appropriate to behave but nothing will get learned when they’re in meltdown.

Also - have you spoken to your HV about getting a diagnosis for DS? That might help your DH see that parenting ‘instinctively’ just isn’t going to work here.

I think your DH needs to learn to calm down and parent properly. It sounds like he is not coping with your DS and stressed - he sounds out of control. Also the swearing too is just not necessary and I’d be worried that HIS behaviour escalates.
Your DS must be very frightened of him. So sad. Please advocate for him op - I know you will.

My nearly 3 definitely does rage wees if she doesn't get her own way. I don't think it's a thought out plan, any more then stamping/ screaming/ shaking with rage etc. It's just one of the ways she reacts to feeling angry.

More annoyingly she also dose "I want to splash in puddles, so will make one" wees. I know she doesn't realise quite how grim that is, but it has definitely been a low point in our potty training journey.

Iv 3 dc who are neurodiverse and yes they can be naughty just like nt children. Yes theres needs to be consequences for bad behaviour like push and shouting when not getting own way - that's not a meltdown thats a tantrum.

Both of you should try ready or listening to 'the incredible years'. Uou can buy book second hand or audio book on audible. Myself and dh did zoom course and found it so helpful getting on the same page with consequences and rewards for behaviour
incredibleyears.com/programs/parent/

Why do men think they can just know everything without doing any research whatsoever. I bet if you got a specialist to explain it to him he would listen. I don't think that it matters whether it not he was doing it on purpose. If autism has been suggested then it definitely would be the to start researching. When they get shouted at it doesn't feel the same as with other kids. Their nervous system might be in overdrive and shouting might just be causing masses of trauma which will make things way worse as he ages.

You need to somehow get your husband to parent better I think. Also is it even worth it to withhold food? There are some schools of thought that withholding snacks and forcing them to stick to the three meal thing is completely pointless. I snack whenever I want so why shouldn't my kid?www.spectrumnews.org/opinion/viewpoint/how-the-autonomic-nervous-system-may-govern-anxiety-in-autism/

This sounds so stressful OP. I wouldn’t even attempt WFH with two young children in the house. Even if DH is technically in charge, they will know you are there and don’t have the maturity to understand that mummy is working and can’t be with them, hence the tantrums and peeing. Go to the office.

@Ottersmith I know! He reads nothing and rolls his eyes when I start a sentence "I was reading..."

Also DH keeps saying "I'm fed up of all this neurodiversity stuff. I don't want to hear all this stuff about autism or whatever. I just want to see someone who can tell us how to make him behave"

As if his behavioral stuff doesn't have any root causes. I keep saying we can pay to see a specialist but they are never going to say "oh you've just got a naughty little shit and you just need to make sure he knows you're the boss"

Sometimes that's what I think he wants to hear.

I'd suggest pursuing the potential for neurodivergence. When we first moved into our current house DS was 2 year old and proceeded to use his new bedroom as a toilet. He was protesting about the change. He's autistic.

@Sweaty84 Yeah and then he'll get a shock when they actually tell him that shouting or telling them off makes it worse!

A child of 3 absolutely can be manipulative they are very clever and only takes 1 time for it to work to their advantage that they learn!

In this case it sounds like ds is distressed or to occupied in a tantrum to even realise he needed to go potty.

‘I keep saying we can pay to see a specialist but they are never going to say "oh you've just got a naughty little shit and you just need to make sure he knows you're the boss"’

of course they aren’t going to say that. They would be out of a job if they did. Even though it’s true for many children.

Hankunamatata

You seem like a great parent.

Hi OP,

By neurodiverse, does the speech therapist mean DS is autistic?

If so, sounds like DS may be experiencing the classic situ of his routine changing on a Friday, and that causing loads of dysregulation.

Wetting himself could be related to interoception (the internal sense that tells us if we're hot/cold, hungry, need the loo). Interoception can be different for autistics. My DD had huge trouble learning to potty train, and would often regress to wetting herself during times of stress.

Or it could be demand avoidance, also linked with being autistic.

I feel for your DH (and needless to say, for DS and you), sounds like he's been ground down / wound up by bearing the brunt of the Friday disruption to routine and is falling back onto the posture of trying to get a handle on it all through behavioural means (stern consequences). I get how he might land up there, but it won't work.

Have you already tried a visual timetable? Get your speech therapist to talk you through it. You can have one for the day, showing all the things you'll do in sequence. And one for the week, showing the days with usual routine and then Friday - day with Daddy picture.

You could try adding a potty symbol to the daily calendar at regular intervals, and try to combine it with a preferred or motivating activity. Eg if he loves doing puzzles, show him a picture of the potty on the bathroom floor with a tray next to it with a puzzle on it that he can do whilst on the potty.

Poos can be hard. For my son (also autistic) we put his potty on a bath mat in front of the TV and let him watch his favourite CBeebies programme. It meant he was relaxed and distracted and unhurried, so resisted pooing less. After about 6 months of this he could then do the poo in the potty in the bathroom.

OP, come over to the SN chat board and start a thread there asking for practical suggestions. Everyone there will get it.

Basically your keys to finding a way of life that is holding and happier for your DS and your whole family unit are:

Special interests - you mentioned music - let him feed on his interests to his hearts content, studies show when autistics are engaged with their special interests it activates the same area of the brain as falling in love

Routine, routine, routine.... and more routines

Visuals .... pictures, photos, everywhere for everything

Sensory input (Google the Falkirk guide to sensory processing, it's a fantastic starting point). Find out what he's averse to and what he's craving. Sensory input is magical stuff

Makaton, if he's struggling to produce speech

Support from a psychotherapist or experienced counsellor for you and DH if you can afford it. PM me if you want a personal rec for someone who helped us lots.

Find your tribe .... find the other families on the same journey ... this takes time but its balm to the soul

A 3yo weeing itself is not normal behaviour... its either an controlling thing. Or trying to get attention etc.

All these pps blaming the dad straight away. Jezus.

But also you say "His speech therapist said he is neurodivergent apparently"

That is like saying the guy at the grocery store said my kid is nd. Like... they are not professionals to asses that op

Is he definitely ready to potty train? It's so much easier when they are ready and this is at different times for different people.

Changes can totally derail their progress. My daughter started happily for a few days at home but then we went away and she needed the potty again. We had a few over night trips coming up so waited until the end of summer to try again.

The back and forth would be likely to cause toileting regression and then the upset and frustration would exacerbate this. So even if they are ready, they won't stay ready.

Many neurotypical children are still in nappies at 3.

Goodness, shouting don't push your mother?

He's 3, not 13!

What happened to teaching our children, calmly saying "that's not nice, pushing mummy isn't going to mean you get a snack", what about you eat your deal and then we will talk about snacks.

DS was probably hangry If a meal was due soon and that to a 3 year old is a disaster.

@AtwilightRebellion the question was whether a 3 year old can manipulate.

Since it's a behaviour seen in much younger children, yes, a 3 year old can manipulate.

In this situation, the OP has all but confirmed this, as she goes running if DS wets himself, he wanted to be around mum, was taken to a different room, and he knows exactly then how to get mum to drop everything and come to him.

He won't do this when it's just him and mum as she is admittedly weak