She just needs a spanking !

[toddleedoo]

Does anyone here spank their kids ? I don't mean serious hitting, but a light clap on the bottom ?

I ask because I recently went on a shopping trip with my DS and my mother. My DS was an absolute nightmare. Having tantrums every time something didn't go his way and continuously throwing himself on the floor.

I don't shout at him in any way when he does this. I just try to distract him and if it doesn't work and he continues, I just kind of let him have his moment and do the whole, name his feelings ( you're so frustrated, mummy understands, it's not nice when we can't do what we want ) and then when he's ready I give him a cuddle. Or other times I just kind of stay near him and don't say much and just try to offer support by being near him. Recently it worked well when I said to him in a really call voice ' poor darling you're so sad and frustrated '. He seemed to calm down. Anyway, long story short, I try to be there, rather than tell him off.

My mum said I should just give him a little smack on his bottom and that would sort it out entirely. Some older people at the shopping centre got involved and were basically saying the same. I don't want to do that.

Am I being too soft though? At home, when he does something naughty like kick or jump around on the sofa, I put him on the step as a punishment. Only when he's actively defiant and hits or does something dangerous. I see him not listening / ignoring me / hitting and throwing stuff, as something that needs consequences, like going on the step.

Having melt downs because he can't get his way is a different thing to me and shouldn't be ' punished ' with a time out. Or should it ? How do you do it in public ?

Open to suggestions, I don't know what I'm doing ! I keep being told I'm too soft.

He is two and a half !

Perfect illustration of my point.

It's quite simple.

Physical punishment is not allowed because of the permanent psychological damage. Other tactics don't work and cause permanent psychological damage in other ways.

Punishments work not through the act of discipline itself, but because the child fears punishment so finds it preferable to behave in a way that avoids it. There is no fear in "naming feelings" or "the naughty step" or "time-out" bullshit. These things only work retroactively, they might end the bad behaviour in the immediate moment but they do not prevent it from reoccuring in future.

The real issue with these psychological humiliations is that we don't yet fully understand the long term implications. I wasn't regularly hit as a child (that I remember) but was frequently to psychological punishment. For years it didn't work, by the time I reached my teens it wore me down so I no longer did anything that anyone could be upset by. I still don't. That might sound fine, but it really isn't. I'm basically a doormat who won't ever stand up for herself because the person who is treating me badly might get cross if I do. I can't do anything for myself unless I feel I have permission to do it - from my partner, from my workmates, from Mr A. Random passing me in the street.

You might feel pleased with yourself about how you deal with your children in such an enlightened manner, but any kind of discipline has a long term negative effect. Reasoning with a child is no better than hitting them. That doesn't mean hitting is right, it just means that all forms of discipline and punishment are equally wrong.

As is not reasoning/disciplining/punishing bad behaviour. So basically, whatever you do, you are wrong.

I would look her straight in the eyes and say I’m not doing that, I don’t want to give him a bdsm fetish when he’s older. When she says you were spanked and you’re ok just look at her and raise your eyebrows. Problem solved. She won’t mention it again.

You might be underestimating how many people who praise smacking have this fetish themselves and actually get off on doing it to children, even in public. Fucking sick, I know (not the fetish itself, but the act of carrying it out in this way). It's definitely a thing though. Some people enjoy it. Pretty sure my father did.

To those who hit their children, how do you teach them not to hit? How do you square that they may enter a relationship with violence because they've grown with the person who loves them most using violence against them?

I don’t agree with smacking. Tantrums are a normal part of development at two. You are absolutely dealing with the situation correctly. As your child matures they will reflect the behaviour you are displaying and as they become more verbal become less frustrated and have less tantrums naturally.

@Dotjones
You've nailed it with the psychological humiliations. I remember the humiliation more than how much it hurt!
When my dad told me he was going to hit me with his belt and made me walk to my bedroom, terrified, made me bend over my bed then hit me several times with his belt - it hurt like hell. I couldn't sit down for days without pain but what stayed with me more was feeling humiliated and ashamed.

So yeah.

Scarred for life is a thing and not something people need to, what was it? Get a grip over or some such shit. It affects you. It changes you.

And he probably got off on it too. Abusive shit.

Now you'll get a ton of people telling you how they hit their kids the right way.

The day I told my father that if he ever touched me again I'd hit him right back was the day he stopped doing it. He was about to hit me, I warned him and he lowered his hands.

All those years of it being brilliant parenting, of there being no better way to raise a child, of his wonderful virtue in doing it - vanished the second he knew it would happen to him. And from a young girl nowhere near his size. Amazing.

I tend to side more with the older generation, but only up to a point. Sometimes when you see a kid screaming in public smacking probably does get them to stop - I’m not saying another way won’t work but if you do walk away or similar and then they eventually calm down what does that teach?
That the world revolves around them and you and it’s fine just for them to learn beahviour lessons while other people are inconvenienced by them?

Sometimes I think kids need the message,l that it’s not ok to disrupt everyone else (especially people they don’t know) and if they do then they will be punished. I mean that’s what will happen in real life. when your acting like a lunatic as an adult there isn’t someone standing by waiting for you to get it out of your system - what good does letting kids do it do? And why teach them that everyone else had to put up with whatever they do when that isn’t reality?

I think you are doing a good job. YOu have a clear well thought out plan for dealing with public meltdowns and your mothers advice is rubbish.

Some older people at the shopping centre got involved

In Criticising you whilst you are trying to calmly deal with the problem, your DM was drawing attention to it and she should have been backing you up both to your son and to the bystanders and telling them on your behalf to be on their way. Their interference was only making things worse.
I can remember my toddler having a melt down in the shopping trolly and the cashier leaning into his face and saying "Why can't you be like your little brother. You need a good smack" Its goading and children are aware of people saying things like that even whilst in melt down.

So what if he had a little meltdown in a large shopping mall anyway? Big deal.

You should talk to DM when DS not around and ask her to keep comments about smacking to herself and not to undermine you with these comments when you are dealing with your son.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

But for those who let their children throw tantrums and try other methods - how do you teach them that it’s not ok to inconvenience every one else because of how they feel?
How do you square that they may enter a relationship where they scream and cry and go off verbally on the other person (emotional abuse) which is the adult equivalent of a tantrum?
Since they’ve been taught that all that will result in is sympathy and being asked to name their feelings?

If you go to far with this the kids will find it very hard, I knew a quite alternative couple who were very hands off with their little boy when he threw tantrums (which was always) and he found it very hard in school because other boys would (predictably) react with violence toward the same kind of beaviour when they were inconvenienced by it.

if you do walk away or similar and then they eventually calm down what does that teach?

That they don't get attention or a lollipop/whatever by screaming about it, and the world around them will carry on unaffected by their tantrum.

That the big feelings will dissipate eventually and nobody who claims to love you will smack you up for having them.

That it is possible to keep your temper even when someone is needling you to lose it like they are.

Of course, the "naming feelings" technique is better still, but if you're not doing that, refusing to be drawn into a tantrum of your own is still a better choice than hitting.

I was smacked as a dc by my dm, hers was uncontrollable violence really, my df never smacked us. Interestingly my dm talks frequently about her awful childhood whilst never acknowledging her own terrible parenting.
I loved my df and avoided my dm as much as possible. I soon realised staying outside was safest.
I would not have hit any other person as a dc because I was too terrified to do anything wrong.

As a parent I had to learn not to overreact when my dc played up.
It was very hard and both of them got a tap on the leg once, each time I felt dreadfully guilty and the only lapse I had was when ds ran in front of a car after being told to stay on the pavement whist I retrieved a dropped toy.
My dc never hit or bit.
My dn bit ds very hard on the cheek once when they were both 18 months. His dm told him off appropriately and I thought she dealt well with it.
My dh never, ever smacked he dc and was so disappointed when I did it. He wasn't there, I told him because I felt so guilty.
My dc are adults now and neither have any memory of being smacked thank goodness.
However dd says I shouted sometimes and she hates shouting. So I feel bad for that.

@ReneBumsWombats

Except the world won’t carry on unaffected by their tantrum at all. That’s not teaching them the reality so it’s a bad thing to teach children.

the reality is people will get angry at them for throwing a public tantrum and if done when they are older there will be significant consequences for that.

Well personally I always removed mine from the situation to as private a space as possible, the idea being that the fun activity or whatever would indeed be continuing unaffected, just without them. The point is, you don't get what you want by tantrumming.

People shouldn't get angry with small children tantrumming (certainly appreciate they get frustrated). It happens. There's a photo of a kid doing it in the presence of Barack Obama while he was president. Anyone who can't understand that all kids tantrum sometimes may not have benefited from terrific parenting themselves. They're big feelings in a small person.

Spanking/smacking is abuse imho. I never hit my kids. And yes they did have full on melt downs and tantrums, especially the ASD ones. In a shop/public though we didn’t sit by and wait it out though, we simply picked them up and carried them out of the shop/back to the car and then went home. We abandoned trollies of stuff sometimes, but it worked. We were consistent, as soon as a tantrum/meltdown started…that’s it going home. It wasnt a punishment per se, we always said hey obviously you can’t cope with being out right now so best thing is to get you away from this environment which is causing the meltdown and try again later/tomorrow.

@Discovereads

Bur isn’t that just teaching them that you’ll inconvenience yourself because of their bad actions? Say what you will about smacking (and I’m not totally sure myself) but the message is clear - misbehave badly and it is you and you alone who will be inconvenienced by it. Which is a message in line with the real world, something which either letting public tantrums play out or just running the kids home at your own inconvenience isn’t.

Why teach them that A- it’s either fine to act out until they calm down or B- if they do act out of frustration someone will always be standing by ready to rush them around and cater to them. Neither are reality.

Bur isn’t that just teaching them that you’ll inconvenience yourself because of their bad actions?

Hello, I'm Parenting. I'm going to be Very Inconvenient.

@ReneBumsWombats

Lol, yes well point well made by I still can’t fully agree. To me enforcing rules and boundaries in parenting should somewhat reflect real world (at its best) consequences rather than totally fantastic ones.

It’s not just for when they are adults but also when they go to school. I’ve known some quite alternative people as a result of my kids school and some employ (in some cases extreme) examples of the hands off no punishment approach. However the kids who do have problem beahviour don’t see to have learnt to stop it and despite the alternative school setting, the other children have no problem with reacting physically to tantrum throwing - which then makes these kids outcasts and pushes them further into their tantrum like and sucky beahviour at an older age.

Smacking looks like it works because children stop what they’re doing when they get a smack. But smacking isn’t a good choice for discipline. That’s because it doesn’t help children learn about self-control or appropriate behaviour.

Not my quote, but a good one.

Smacking works if your main aim is a quick return to socially acceptable behaviour. Smacking does not stop the situation reoccurring because it does not address the underlying reasons the child found themselves in that situation in the first place.

Smacking relies on the parent controlling the child behaviour in the moment. Not smacking relies on the parent controlling the situations around the child (i.e. setting them up for success).

Smacking tends to be used by parents with reactive behavioural methods. Not smacking requires far more proactive parenting to be effective.

Unfortunately you are crediting small children and then small & older children with ASD with self-control as to when they have a tantrum or meltdown and similarly control themselves whilst they have them. So hitting them isn’t going to help or prevent future tantrums/meltdowns..in fact hitting them adds to the stress which make tantrums/meltdowns more likely not less. No child enjoys and plans on having a tantrum/meltdown. It happens to them.

And yes, it is inconvenient to take a child home / abandon the trip out in the event of a tantrum/meltdown but the message it sends is that their mental health is more important than anyones convenience. Which is a good real life message to give them imho. We have a MH crisis in young people now…suicide rates have doubled on the past decade. Perhaps prioritising the parents convenience has contributed to that?

“Why teach them that A- it’s either fine to act out until they calm down”
Its not teaching them this, it’s recognising they are too young to (or due to ASD cannot) process sensory overload and strong emotions and so the best reaction is to get them to a safe space until they can calm down.

“or B- if they do act out of frustration someone will always be standing by ready to rush them around and cater to them.”
It does teach them that they have the full unwavering support of their parents in tackling tantrums/meltdowns which isn’t really catering to them in my opinion. There’s nothing wrong with putting your child’s mental health above getting a shopping list ticked off right then and there. It’s no different from say setting off on a shopping trip and your child starts vomiting everywhere- of course you are going to go straight home and reschedule the trip. It’s the same with tantrums/meltdowns which are the mental/emotional equivalent of vomiting 🤮

Parents who smack are just giving in to their anger and then trying to justify it afterwards. They should just admit that they lost their shit, it's not the end of the world 🤷‍♀️ not quite the same but I have an older, severely autistic son and when he's upset, a softly softly approach is literally the only thing that works for me. If I started hitting him, he would, quite understandably, go completely mad so I imagine it's similar for smaller children. If they see you getting stressed, they'll become more stressed and probably wonder why their parent is hurting them.

Lol, yes well point well made by I still can’t fully agree. To me enforcing rules and boundaries in parenting should somewhat reflect real world (at its best) consequences rather than totally fantastic ones.

There's nothing totally fantastic about teaching kids that tantrumming won't get them what they want and will result only in them being removed from a situation until they can do better. That's pretty much how it works at the adult level. Unless you find yourself surrounded by very indulgent people, which does happen, but there's really only so much we can do.

A two year old isn't going to understand that Mummy is being inconvenienced. The whole day is probably being spent doing things Mummy doesn't really want to do. They'll just understand that tantrumming didn't get them the sweets or whatever, and indeed took them further from them. The age of tantrums (assuming a child is NT; obviously it's different otherwise) is too young to teach much more complex lessons than that.

Parenting is one long inconvenience. Perhaps you shouldn't teach your kids that it isn't!

Even if this isn't a perfect solution, nothing is worse than attempting to teach children self control and self regulation by hitting them. The only thing that teaches is that might is right, no thinking involved.

I think this is spot on. The only problem is, I can't physically carry my squirming, angry 9yo 😆 I have to do the whole getting on his level somewhere out of the way and trying to reason with him thing.

@HippoLover2
To me enforcing rules and boundaries in parenting should somewhat reflect real world (at its best) consequences rather than totally fantastic ones.

To a child, their interaction with their parents is the real world. There’s no reason to make it harsh because the outside world can be harsh with many children growing up in abusive homes.

It’s not just for when they are adults but also when they go to school.
But you were just advocating smacking a tantruming child to teach them a lesson they shouldn’t act badly. Corporal punishment was banned in U.K. schools decades ago. And adults cannot smack each other to correct misbehaviour- that’s criminal assault. So I dont know any “real world” where hitting is acceptable in school or as an adult.