to wonder if BAME people care more than others about women’s rights?

[ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus]

Do BAME people care more about women’s rights?

Today I read about attorney general Suella Braverman opposing the SNP’s plan to
speed up gender self-ID. By allowing anyone to claim to be the other sex, self-ID would of course give every man (trans or not, sex predator or not) access to all women’s services and spaces.

Yesterday, it was the equalities minister Kemi Badenoch stating that all new public
buildings must have single-sex toilets.

Health secretary Sajid Javid has told the NHS to stop replacing words that have a female meaning (such as ‘woman’) with expressions such as ‘person with a uterus’. The NHS and many large organisations have been doing this to avoid offending trans people. But it is baffling to many people, who then risk missing vital health information.

Dame Kelly Holmes supports the Fair Play for Women campaign to stop males competing in women’s sports, despite transactivists’ aggression.

And so many heroic resisters have been fighting legal battles: Allison Bailey, Keira
Bell, Raquel Rosario Sanchez, Shahrar Ali …

And it’s not only the fight to keep women’s single-sex rights. Sajid Javid has also
refused to shut up about grooming gangs, despite being (unfairly) accused of racism.

Those are just the few I can think of on the spur of the moment. I know there are
many more.

Of course there are many other, non-BAME feminists and allies fighting against the
withdrawal of women’s rights and protections. But the percentage who are BAME seems very noticeable.

Any ideas why?

@ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus I would say that the black women who say twaw and support trans rights are doing so because they recognise the narrow framework within which a 'woman' is defined. Historically black women have been treated abysmally, experimented on and so forth. A lot of the 'strong black woman' trope rests heavily on the idea that black women can tolerate pain (physical and emotional) in a way which white women haven't really been depicted. White women in that sense are the epitome of femininity. So many black women are acutely aware that they too can find themselves next in the cross hares of those that seek to gate keep womanhood.

I think some cultures have more clearly defined different roles for the sexes and coming from that sort of background I'd expect it to be harder to be convinced that toilets and changing rooms should suddenly become mixed sex for example.

It is possible think women shouldn't have as many rights while seeing them as a distinct sex based class. It's also possible to believe in rights like abortion and equal pay while having a much more fuzzy definition of woman.

If there is any racial breakdown with regards to these views I think it makes sense to separate women's rights and sex segregation in order to get a more nuanced picture

Vladimirs, the narrow framework within which a 'woman' is defined is biological fact.

Transactivists frequently claim that “transwomen are women just as black women are women”. The eye-boggling racism of that statement seems to elude them. Black women are women (obviously) just as white women, old women, French women etc are women.

So many black women are acutely aware that they too can find themselves next in the cross hares of those that seek to gate keep womanhood. I’d be very surprised if any woman thought that.

You are trying to link racism with women’s fight to keep single-sex spaces. There is no link. Women’s spaces are for everyone who was born female.

I think a lot of those people probably had to develop a very thick skin being minorities and in the public eye and perhaps what it took to get there. So sticking your head above the parapet is maybe just like “meh, may as well”.

Also a lot of women from minority groups have to deal with outright in your face misogyny from a young age from their own communities. Makes your pretty fucking angry, while white people are talking about the pay gap many asian girls are being told they are held to higher standard and control (variations on don’t be a whore) than their brothers while simultaneously being less valuable. Obviously this has changed a lot in recent decades.

I’m not convinced that theres a clearcut white VS BAME divide here. Some of my cousins are WOKE, but they are young and haven’t fully understood all the ways the world will shit on you as a woman and then tell you you need to “be kind” (yet). I think it’s more of a class/location thing tbh. Everyone knows what a woman is, but there are people who need to maintain the fiction to maintain their self image. My cousins basically went to very good unis (oxbridge type of thing) very much london based, young etc etc.

Also there is nothing more patronising than thinking that ethnic minorities owe you their intellectual loyalty. I assure you most are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves. I remember the advert during Corbyn’s campaign promising that only he could unleash the potential of us dumbasses, thank you great white saviour. I imagine many a doctor/lawyer/cabinet minister/teacher etc rolled their eyes at that one. You may not agree with them and think they are misguided but to go “oh but how could you!!! You are NIGERIAN” is just as othering as the far right imo. Also if someone 3/4 white why can’t they identify as white. If they were 3/4 black would you be as bewildered if they identified as black? That one drop rule eh.

Yep, this is another reason why the teen BAME is stupid because even between groups of black and brown people there is racism and colourism. It's not a united group.

I work for a University. IME, BAME students and staff are mostly EDI and student union influenced. It's generally intersectional, rans embracing and pro gender ideology. This is especially noticeable with young traditional Muslim women who wear the Hijab and are strictly religious. They have to align themselves with this trend ideology to benefit from the inclusivity policies, if they don't they're out on their own .

Its not just about knowing that rights are important. Its about knowing why they are important and how they work in practice.

I would hazard a guess that ethnic minorities understand that its not as simple as making a proclamation and saying everyone should believe this.

Its also about the unintended consequences and side effects to others which those virtue signalling dont always get, because they don't think and haven't the life experience to refer to.

a woman being a woman is a now conservative view — yes, weird or what! And people who call themselves left wing support the most anti-socialist me-me-me ideology, the gender identity movement. Strange days indeed.

You’ve raised something I was wondering about, regarding values that are currently out of fashion in white mainstream Britain. Things that (as it turns out) protected women and children to some extent, eg making it unthinkable that men would intrude in women’s spaces. Like common decency, which sounds silly now, but meant that men who wanted to live out their sex fantasies had to do it at home or in a private like-minded group. Or ‘the common good’, which meant individualist demands didn’t override the welfare of the community.

Does growing up in a conservative, traditional culture instil those values, to the extent that adults can fearlessly contradict a currently enforced ideology? And/ or how much does a religious background play a role?

Something gave Suella Braverman, Kemi Badenoch, Sajid Javid etc the guts to speak up where so many don’t dare.

I love and admire the feminists and allies of all backgrounds who stand up for women’s rights. But it gives me a moment of extra joy to see tough, competent BAME women in power.

What???????????????????????????????????????
Misogyny is rife in african and asian countries

One of the common responses to raising these issues is to bring up 'transwomen of colour' and say that the person is racist by association because their concerns have a negative impact on black women specifically.

Yes but in those countries they are not black and MINORITY ethnic, as they are in countries with a native population who are white.

I believe OP was referring to people in the UK.

Bit of an overreaction there.
And if course it doesn't reflect on you. Your personal level of care for women's rights should be evident from your attitudes and behaviour. The fact that you're part of a group that may or may not care more or less than another group is irrelevant. Not sure why it's so important to you to be part of the group that 'cares the most' either. Just do your bit. Its not a competition.

What a ridiculous comment.

Looking this up online, I found that Zamila Bunglawala at the Cabinet Office’s Race Disparity Unit, recommends “ethnic minority” rather than BAME or BME
civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2019/07/08/please-dont-call-me-bame-or-bme/

That’s the term I remember from long ago, but presumably it was changed for a reason?

The primacy of the B is pretty much inherent in the acronym; otherwise why wouldn’t it just ME? It’s an inherently hierarchical term. And exclusionary.

In my opinion transectionalism is the worst thing to ever have happened to the Left.
Almost as if it were concocted to divide resistance to the primacy of the military/industrial/financial complex.

If you don’t believe me, have a look at this very thread, where Tory stool pigeons of colour, who are happy for poor kids to go to failing schools on empty stomachs, and for British bombs to rain down on Yemeni women & girls, are lauded for pretending to give shit about who uses poor people’s changing rooms.

🏆 🥇🎗

So white women care less about women's rights. What bollocks are you basing that on? Why are trying to competitively measure how much people 'care' - what does that even mean, 'caring' about something, such a genderist nurturing woman stereotype word anyway - in correlation with race/colour/ethnicity anyway, what the fuck does that achieve for women's rights?

Thanks, psydrive, yes I was musing about events I’d just read about in UK news. But these two comments add another interesting layer: the effect of being brought up in a minority culture. Are values likely to take deeper root than in people whose culture is the unquestioned majority?

And of course we’re talking likelihood, tendencies etc, as no group of people is one mass of identical clones.

Hard to answer this as I didn’t say what you’ve invented. I was asking a question, not making an assertion. My first intention was to celebrate a band of heroes, while wondering how much their backgrounds contributed to their strength of mind and purpose. I’ve had some useful and thought-provoking responses — thanks to all who made them.

OP gets a medal for trolliest post of the day

I don't think so because I genuinely don't think the OP even understands what she is implying and subsequently arguing.

OK Vlad, tell me. Maybe my brain is too covid-fuddled to understand.

I was surprised at the OPs comments. Look at the videos or listen to too many black male musicians whose attitude towards women and homophobia is very evident.

You did say that. You said, 'to wonder if BAME people care more than others about women’s rights?' as the title.

You then said: 'I’m not claiming any in-depth knowledge. Just musing that about 10% of the UK’s population are BAME people, and whites have always had greater access to positions of powe. But the politicians and influential people I see in the news, defending women’s rights, seem disproportionately often to be non-white.'

Absolutely, do have a thread about the visibility and activism of BAME/whatever you want to label in women's rights in the UK, specifically in relation to trans issues it seems, and all the multifacets of that.

But here's the thing: You don't have to do that at the expense of a false comparator of BAME v. (your quote) ''whites'', who ''cares more'', with the latter having less 'deep seated values' than ethnic minorities, to quote one of your most recent posts. Ironically, in your quest to explore and celebrate this topic, you are saying some utterly hateful and divisive nonsense.

Are values likely to take deeper root than in people whose culture is the unquestioned majority?