to wonder if BAME people care more than others about women’s rights?

[ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus]

Do BAME people care more about women’s rights?

Today I read about attorney general Suella Braverman opposing the SNP’s plan to
speed up gender self-ID. By allowing anyone to claim to be the other sex, self-ID would of course give every man (trans or not, sex predator or not) access to all women’s services and spaces.

Yesterday, it was the equalities minister Kemi Badenoch stating that all new public
buildings must have single-sex toilets.

Health secretary Sajid Javid has told the NHS to stop replacing words that have a female meaning (such as ‘woman’) with expressions such as ‘person with a uterus’. The NHS and many large organisations have been doing this to avoid offending trans people. But it is baffling to many people, who then risk missing vital health information.

Dame Kelly Holmes supports the Fair Play for Women campaign to stop males competing in women’s sports, despite transactivists’ aggression.

And so many heroic resisters have been fighting legal battles: Allison Bailey, Keira
Bell, Raquel Rosario Sanchez, Shahrar Ali …

And it’s not only the fight to keep women’s single-sex rights. Sajid Javid has also
refused to shut up about grooming gangs, despite being (unfairly) accused of racism.

Those are just the few I can think of on the spur of the moment. I know there are
many more.

Of course there are many other, non-BAME feminists and allies fighting against the
withdrawal of women’s rights and protections. But the percentage who are BAME seems very noticeable.

Any ideas why?

No, I remember that thread. Not sure what part of it showed that Amy Cooper wasn't thoroughly lambasted? She lost her job, her dog, her friends, had to move cities and go into hiding... I don't think a few people on MN saying 'maybe we should look at both sides' really diminishes any of that.

No, I remember that thread. Not sure what part of it showed that Amy Cooper wasn't thoroughly lambasted
Oh, I think you need to give it another read then.

She lost her job, her dog, her friends, had to move cities and go into hiding... I don't think a few people on MN saying 'maybe we should look at both sides' really diminishes any of that.

Anyway, this is a derail. Could you give me an example of women using their 'feminity and whiteness as violence' in the UK? If you can't, that's okay.

I've already given you two examples already and you've (

Bloody phone 😭
I've already given you two examples already and you've (as predicted) dismissed them as they're not in the UK so want more examples.
Forever changing goalposts.
I completely understand why @VladmirsPoutine says she's not talking to white people about race anymore, it must be utterly fucking draining 😭😂
I don't come to MN to be set homework assignments and do others donkey work.
If you were really bothered about learning, you'd have a look yourself.

I'm not changing the goalposts. I appreciate the examples you gave, and I'm just asking you to connect the dots. You can't, and that's okay.

I'm not asking for an education in race relations or black history, and if I were, I certainly wouldn't be asking you, Janet, so no worries on that score.

You can't, and that's okay
Yeah, you didn't read the post, did you, either that or you didn't understand it?
I'm not asking for an education in race relations or black history
Nobody said you were 😕
and if I were, I certainly wouldn't be asking you, Janet, so no worries on that score.
🤣😂

But in general I think that racism is repugnant to most people. I've very rarely come across racist views being expressed, especially in the last ten years or so
Lucky you then.
I have, just the other week in fact.
Lots of people still sickeningly hold racist views, just because you haven't heard any for 10 years or so doesn't mean they're not really expressed anymore.
As the pp said,if they think they're in the right company they spout their shit.
Hopefully won't try it with me anymore as think made pretty clear was disgusted by what was being spouted.

There was a case in NI in the 60s where a woman said she had been attacked (and got pregnant).

She admitted about ten years ago (?) that it wasn’t the truth. She was married and ashamed that she had an affair with a student from Africa.

That must stay with wrongly accused people and effect their behaviour afterwards. You can’t just get over that.

In the interests of accuracy I’ll try and find the correct details

^Really don't like the argument I always see on here that goes something like "but that happened in America, not the UK."
So what? It happening anywhere is awful, it's not a competition and doesn't mean we might be any better just because "well look at what America did"^

Well, if you're going to make the distinction between different races then surely we can make the distinction between different countries and cultures.

R.e. the feminism board and generally speaking when women describe sexism say in the workplace such as a man repeating what a woman has said to much acknowledgement as opposed to the blank stares a woman receives when suggesting her idea. Or the fact that women talk in a lot more self-deprecating ways than men. Or that women have legitimate fears about men that shouldn't be considered hysterical. Or women fearing going for promotion because they feel they're not good enough and so forth or feeling intimidated by men. Most, well let's say a lot of women understand and even have experienced at least some of these. And those that haven't tend to sympathise and understand the issue. When you replace sexism with racism but still use the above scenarios you'll even have the most progressive people telling you you're over-thinking it if not just down right denying it happened at all.

I think the problem with all of those examples (both sexist and racist) is that you can't pin down any one of those things individually as a racist act. All together a pattern emerges pointing in one direction though. But, if you called out one incident at the time, you would look unreasonable, because you could well be wrong about that one time and unfairly labeling someone as sexist or racist. I don't really know the way forward on this. Blind recruitment (for example) can only go so far.

Look at the recent stories about maternity care for black women. Tying any single event down as racist would be extremely difficult, but all added together...

I think those things/patterns take longer to resolve. Making people equal in law is the basic first step that has to happen, then culture eventually seems to follow along. Organisations and companies all have policies now, which I think can be helpful in terms of changing workplace culture. Growing up and going to school in multicultural areas probably makes a difference too.

I think we need much better data on some of these issues. Black maternal mortality is a good example of an issue where we can see a problem but we don't understand why it's happening. It's not helpful to just say 'racism' and leave it at that - maybe it's down to racism, sure, but what does that mean on a practical level? We need to understand what's actually happening - and be open to all possible explanations - in order to change the outcome. In general, we don't seem very good at going through logical steps to get to answers. We're very good at just throwing a label at a problem: racism! sexism! but not good at getting any further with it.

I think one thing leaders could do on a political level is encourage more integration in terms of values. Like, for example, yes you can practice your religion, but you can't have sharia law, you can't behead teachers because they've insulted your prophet. A British person can be of any race or background, but we should have some shared values that make it possible to get along and make life easier for everyone.

Black maternal mortality is a good example of an issue where we can see a problem but we don't understand why it's happening. It's not helpful to just say 'racism' and leave it at that - maybe it's down to racism, sure, but what does that mean on a practical level? We need to understand what's actually happening

In practice this means black women being more likely to be denied pain-relief due to for example the strong black woman trope. It can mean having your choices questioned and ignored due to the perception that you aren't competent/intelligent enough to make your own choices. It can mean being overlooked because your needs just aren't important enough to them (a factor behind the BLM movement). I hate to use so much of my own life experiences to elucidate certain points but one thing that my sister says that has stayed with her after giving birth was one of the nurses who I'm sure meant well holding her hand during delivery and telling her "you can do this! You're a strong black woman."

To address this point too because I thought surely this would make a difference:

Growing up and going to school in multicultural areas probably makes a difference too.

A lot of 2nd and now 3rd generation black adults went to the same universities as their white counterparts who now work in say advertising and marketing, law, policy etc yet there's still a lack of a diverse workforce in these industries. These black students have the same cultural reference points, speak English with the same level of nuance and fluency, actually have adopted the Britain as home (versus their parents who see home as say their native African country) yet in all this these black students still struggle to get on the ladder even with the same grades.

The issue doesn't end there because once you even get into these industries a whole new world of micro-aggressions is waiting for you.

Those are exactly the kind of areas where we need better data. What's stopping black graduates from going into law, for example? I think there must be multiple factors here. But the conversation always seems to stop at 'racism'. Which I don't doubt is part of the problem but it's not the whole thing. Do black graduates want to work in law? Is there more appeal in higher paying industries like tech? Are they actually applying for these roles? If so, are they getting kicked out at application stage? What's happening at interview? I don't know the answers but I suspect it's complex.

Same with black maternal mortality. We need more and better data. Pain relief is part of it but it's not the whole picture.

What I would say, my general position, is that while these sorts of issues are important, they are the kind of difficult issues that need a lot of careful thought. It's not like we are dealing with 'gross' problems like not having the right to work or equal housing etc, but fine-grained issues that we don't properly understand, but we do have the willingness to resolve. And this situation is pretty excellent compared to where we were at even 30 or 50 years ago. And excellent compared to most of the rest of the world.

@beastlyslumber That's just the thing isn't it. Always one more report, an inquiry, an investigation, a better grasp of the research and so on and so forth. The movement to stop talking to white people about race came from such things. Because the goal of racism is actually to deter you from doing your work. If I and other black people can spend their lives explaining to white people who have no vested interest in changing the material reality then the cycle continues and continues again until black people just get exhausted. White people are more than happy to have a look at the data and review their internal policies - they actively get off on that stuff. Because the end result will not change anything.

That's why people like myself are involved in things like providing resource cards to young black men about what their rights are and what they should do in the very likely event they get stopped by the police for the crime of wearing a hoody or driving a nice car. It's why we also have funding for young black boys and girls to get therapy from black therapists about the traumas they're experiencing because as a black kid on your way to the shop then suddenly finding yourself on the pavement with 4 white police officers on top of you can really wreck your mental health. For black girls getting feedback from their teachers that they have 'attitude' can change their entire view of themselves so the therapy really helps. Building a network of knowledge and resource sharing for black kids is pivotal too.

These are the things that will change the cycle (can't stop it entirely because white people won't let that happen - the status quo suits them too much) but these can help and act as a crutch. So whilst I agree we do need more 'research' and better 'data' - in the meantime I'm just gonna be breaking the cycle in tangible ways

FWIW, I've worked in management at a mid sized law firm (not legally qualified through, in a sales/bid management capacity). I encountered fair number of Indians but much less black workmates.

Now I work in the construction sector I've encountered a lot more black people, although admittedly nearly all male (although that's the case with the sector in general). My guess would be that in professional sectors there is a much bigger emphasis on being traditionally 'well spoken' and fitting a particular image.

This is less the case in construction/plant and I know lots of managers who literally started at the bottom and gradually worked their way up in a manner that is more difficult in professions requiring specific qualification. At the mortar plant I go to they teach most plant workers how to use the batching system after they've been there a while. They then gradually learn how to fix common problems, and many become supervisors or stand in batchers. Some then get sent off to other plants and get management training and become plant/site managers.

And people who call themselves left wing support the most anti-socialist me-me-me ideology, the gender identity movement. Strange days indeed

No. There are vast numbers of GC left leaning women. And men. This is simply not true.

That's just the thing isn't it. Always one more report, an inquiry, an investigation, a better grasp of the research and so on and so forth. The movement to stop talking to white people about race came from such things. Because the goal of racism is actually to deter you from doing your work. If I and other black people can spend their lives explaining to white people who have no vested interest in changing the material reality then the cycle continues and continues again until black people just get exhausted
Exactly this

This is something I thankfully don't really experience at work anymore. If the plant goes down, the person that diagnoses and fixes it gets the credit. Because they got it working again. Simple as that.

IME it's much more complex in project management-ish scenarios with large teams working together over extended periods. Managers often only see the high level view and it's easy for the most vocal or strategically sneaky employees to take a lot of credit.

In my case, it was mainly women I experienced this from, working in a primarily female team (eight women, two men). The majority had to leave 'on time' or earlier than me (were on flexitime) to collect the kids, meaning that me and the other childless team member would often be left proofing and doing the tweaks into the early evening as submission deadlines approached.

Many of my colleagues would say they were going to log on later and catch up, but it rarely happened. I did of course understand the need for work/life balance and the responsibilities of parenthood, but it always irked me a bit when they happily took equal credit (and bonus) for many less hours contributed.

Many of them were quite strategic about it by being very vocal in the weekly update calls or logging into the portal for a few mins before bed and making a couple of minor edits so their name was the last one to have edited the document - this particularly annoyed me when I'd worked on a document till 9pm and came in next morning to people saying "ohh, looks like Sarah was still working at 10pm" when I knew Sarah had only logged in for five mins and made a few tweaks.

I don't think the term BAME is so helpful as it lumps everyone who is not "White" into one homogeneous group. You can't possibly begin to fathom the opinions of a massively diverse group of people each one with different opinions it's just bloody insulting.

Being a female working in the construction sector has meant that I've had a lot of experience of being the other. I'd actually say that I've encountered far less women in construction than I have BAME people in professional sector management roles.

Whilst there are definitely obstacles which need to be addressed, I don't think it helps to always focus on the negatives at the expense of actually pushing forward and breaking the mold. I've encountered far more women that moan about unequal representation than I have women who are actually prepared to step up and be the change they want to see.

The term 'white' isn't great either tbh Russians, Scots, and Israeli Jews don't necessarily share a lot in common, for example.

@TruthHertz very true sweeping terms don't help.

The problem when you just label any disparity as systemic racism is that you really have no clue what the cause is of the disparity, and no idea what to do about it. It's completely useless in terms of targeting policy. When you do this, all you really have done is to replace the word "disparity" with racism.

If there is a difference, a disparity between groups, there is always always a material cause, a way that this is being instantiated in the physical world. It may or may not actually be a direct cause in relation to the group you are looking at, it could easily be a correlation.

So I am a little skeptical of the idea that people who want to actually dig into the material explanation for the disparity are trying to avoid action, while those who don't are the ones trying to make change.