to wonder if BAME people care more than others about women’s rights?

[ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus]

Do BAME people care more about women’s rights?

Today I read about attorney general Suella Braverman opposing the SNP’s plan to
speed up gender self-ID. By allowing anyone to claim to be the other sex, self-ID would of course give every man (trans or not, sex predator or not) access to all women’s services and spaces.

Yesterday, it was the equalities minister Kemi Badenoch stating that all new public
buildings must have single-sex toilets.

Health secretary Sajid Javid has told the NHS to stop replacing words that have a female meaning (such as ‘woman’) with expressions such as ‘person with a uterus’. The NHS and many large organisations have been doing this to avoid offending trans people. But it is baffling to many people, who then risk missing vital health information.

Dame Kelly Holmes supports the Fair Play for Women campaign to stop males competing in women’s sports, despite transactivists’ aggression.

And so many heroic resisters have been fighting legal battles: Allison Bailey, Keira
Bell, Raquel Rosario Sanchez, Shahrar Ali …

And it’s not only the fight to keep women’s single-sex rights. Sajid Javid has also
refused to shut up about grooming gangs, despite being (unfairly) accused of racism.

Those are just the few I can think of on the spur of the moment. I know there are
many more.

Of course there are many other, non-BAME feminists and allies fighting against the
withdrawal of women’s rights and protections. But the percentage who are BAME seems very noticeable.

Any ideas why?

Yes. I just don't see how it's possible to make effective changes if you don't know exactly what's going wrong. Putting a label on a problem is not the same as understanding it.

@MangyInseam

You’ve articulated that so well. I feel that is exactly what is happening with so many things. There is a disconnection between those who are, as you say, recognising the material impact/reality and those who are raising the issues - it’s as though they are not aligned.

I remember reading about child mortality in pregnant black women in the U.K. and the stats are disproportionate to other groups. This was looked into by researchers and they could identify several key elements that contributed to the deaths. Pre eclampsia, I think was one issue where there were higher rates requiring the women to attend more appointments and go into hospital earlier. There were other factors that were significant to do with overall health, expectations and housing (if I remember correctly).

So, I think that there may be people who are saying these are the issues, the medical world has to take this into account and find ways that support women in these situations so that the medical outcome is positive rather than negative. And then the medical world says we can do x, y and z only through occupational health, etc - we cannot alter your housing/financial situation so that you have a more settled pregnancy, free of stress.

So the message to the women is that they are high risk medically but there is no ‘medical’ solution as the causes aren’t always medical. That’s not particularly helpful to an already vulnerable woman whose head must be filled with those worries anyway.

As the people who are vocalising this recognise that the system isn’t aligning to resolve issues that disproportionately affect one particular demographic in maternity and are political, activists, concerned members of the community, the message is delivered along the political messaging framework that addresses systemic change. So, medics think we are trying to solve this problem and people hear nothing is happening and the weight of all this ‘not happening’ but creating lots of noise and what can be perceived as ‘blocks’ falls on the most vulnerable woman in this scenario - the pregnant woman.

I apologise to any black women reading this who finds the matter of fact tone I have used offensive. It’s absolutely not my intention - I’m struggling with memory and writing atm and I know my points were vague in places but wanted to point out what I have observed and heard speaking to women from that community.

So I am a little skeptical of the idea that people who want to actually dig into the material explanation for the disparity are trying to avoid action, while those who don't are the ones trying to make change.

I don't disagree with this. And your subsequent response to this post @beastlyslumber

Yes. I just don't see how it's possible to make effective changes if you don't know exactly what's going wrong. Putting a label on a problem is not the same as understanding it.

Are words I've come across so many times before. Oddly enough, the MacPherson Report which is now over 2 decades old has worked fantastically well at reforming the police. But to be a bit less facetious: I don't think what anyone has said about needing more research, information and data is wrong.

I along with many other black people have been at these panels, these research interviews, studied it and been consulted. A lot of what we are saying is not new. It even predates my own parents' parents.

I've said it so many times before on most race threads I join on Mumsnet - you wouldn't join a vegan forum to extol the virtues of a bacon sandwich. I'm only here for the MiL drama threads!

Much such as what I said upthread has not been met with total refusal but a certain interrogation which is just natural. I've often said to black graduate trainees that they're going to need a skin more resilient than that of an elephant. Because they'll go crazy trying to explain micro-aggressions and what is happening to them but will be told: 'it's not that bad', 'you're being too sensitive', 'she was having a bad day', 'she didn't mean it like that', 'it's really not that serious', 'the moon is in neptune' or whatever else. The shocking thing would actually be a white person saying "Actually you're right, that did happen and it's totally shit." But that's very rare.

We have certain mentoring for black grad trainees that even we've extended to black women in certain industries where they are free to talk about their experiences without being gaslighted. What I try to really drill into these trainees in particular is that the default position to their experiences will be to minimise, ignore and be down right skeptical of it instead of accepting what they have experienced.

They need to learn that trying to get their white counterpart to see their humanity and understand what has just happened is just not going to happen. It does not work like that. So it takes a lot of time for them to reframe their mind. A lot. Even on this thread it's been happening but that's just what it is. I'm also part of a mainly black forum and everything I wrote upthread would be like preaching to the choir there.

So whilst we all need to look at the data and think about sensible policy-making I'm just getting on with things. The same group who were policy makers in a particular area I specialised in are still having 'consultations' last time I checked. It's not an either/or. But I'm just trying to get black women in particular to stop staking their sense of self on a white person believing them because they'd be better off jumping off the Eiffel Tower and flapping their arms trying to fly.

I've got quite a few black workmates and none of them seem too concerned about the above tbh. 'Making white people see their humanity' seems to be less of a concern than who's going to put the kettle on and make everyone a brew.

@TruthHertz that must be very reassuring for you. If only we could get the word out that all anyone cares about is who is going to put the kettle on. Think of how many issues that could be applied to. Northern Ireland? Just put the kettle on. Trans women? Just put the kettle on. Climate change? Just put the kettle on

I've got quite a few black workmates and none of them seem too concerned about the above tbh
Oh well, if your few black workmates"don't seem concerned" (like you'd know if they are?!) then that's OK then, nothing to see here, move along.
You're kind of proving Vlad's post right about microagressions by insinuating they're not important or of much concern in the first place.
(Is I have black workmates the new I have a few black friends argument?)

@TruthHertz Genuine question. Do you think Child Q should have just spoken for herself?

And who doesn't have workmates who are POC in this day and age? Well, I suppose maybe the privileged mumsnet executives who work in traditionally white senior management environments or wfh in their naice market towns where everybody is white and rather posh (these are usually the most vocal types as they seem not to realise that for most people black workmates are not some vanishingly rare novelty).

When I realise that people like TruthHertz are really what we're dealing with it makes me just want to give up. Because you can see how and why things will always remain as they are. It's remarkable really. Absolutely remarkable. It's like the twilight.

I'm out.

@GoodJanetBadJanet Thank you for taking the time out to listen to me and my musings.

Don't forget the lurkers @VladmirsPoutine there's people reading who aren't posting.

I think the scores of women who find their ideas are ignored but when a men vocalises the same idea it is listen to, carried out and praised will totally disagree with you. There is plenty of evidence that this occurs. You may not realise it happens as it is often very subtle but it happens. I’ve sat in way too many meetings where men who don’t have the experience or education on very bespoke matters are listened to above and beyond women who are specialists in the area and especially if that woman happens to be a black woman they often aren’t event given the air time.

Your later statement saying someone has a chip on their shoulder is such blatant dog whistle racism that it belies your true sentiment. Racism and sexism are both real and working harder doesn’t change that fact.

And who doesn't have workmates who are POC in this day and age?

That's what you took away from my comment?
Ok, that figures. 🙄
@VladmirsPoutine that's ok, and easier said than done I know but don't let them grind you down.
Plenty of us are listening, and as @MrsTerryPratchett said there's always the lurkers reading and watching and learning.

@TruthHertz BAME societies are just as bad, if not much worse.
The above sentence shows your racism.

You have not been accused of being racist because of you objecting to the statement 'white people don't see black people as human beings'.

You’ve been called racist because of the many dog whistle statements in your posts and for your constant posts where you are demanding WoC should kowtow to what you believe to be the only way forward. There are plenty examples of white feminism being actively detrimental to WoC, stating this fact isn’t being divisive. By the way black people in Africa aren’t minorities (another show of your racism).