Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

916 replies

landantan · 30/06/2022 15:37

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

OP posts:
beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 21:54

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 20:58

Internalised misogyny?

Misguided belief that they can escape sex based oppression by identifying out of womanhood?

Right.

Which has what to do with people wanting to steal womens' rights (if anything they are doing the opposite)

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 21:54

BellePeppa · 01/07/2022 20:58

I’m sorry that person is missing but they are not a woman and it’s things like this that make people roll their eyes and dismiss trans women as attention seeking and insincere (unfortunate for the genuine ones). A man cannot just call himself Isobella and that makes him a woman. 😡

I agree, as would most on this thread.
Hee haw to do with the (disingenous) OP though.

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 21:55

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 21:54

Right.

Which has what to do with people wanting to steal womens' rights (if anything they are doing the opposite)

Trans men aren't truing to steal women's rights.

Although they are unhelpful in that respect.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 21:58

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 21:40

ALSO like you. Nobody is any less or more important - we are all equal. So where's your compromise, given that you literally deny their identity?

I deny theirs only to the degree that they deny mine. That's what you are missing. There is no compromise not because one side or the other is unreasonable, but because the two definitions of the word woman are mutually exclusive. If a trans woman is a woman then I am not, and vice versa. (And as an aside, given that we are all equal, I'm really interested why your preferred solution here is the one that takes away from female people to the benefit of male?)

IMO the only way to resolve this paradox is to have different words.

Personally I believe that the female bodied meaning of the word, being the one that has been in use for hundreds of years and most importantly the one in use when the various women-only rights and protections were created, is the one that should stand and a new word coined for the gender identity that trans- and cis- women share. (The latter of course would have both words, because since sex and gender are different clearly one person can have both a gender and a sex and wouldn't it be wonderful to just have separate words for these separate things and stop fighting about it?)

But I'd accept a brand new shiny word for female people if necessary as long as we can use it to support female rights, spaces and protections.

I see you didn't address my question on the existence of transmen (and the fact that young trans people in this country are overwhelmingly FTM). Without using the misogny card, can you explain how that relates to your post?

"Without mentioning that society is sexist, explain why different sexes may result in different dynamics in ostensibly the "same" social scenario?" 😂

I entirely support mens' right to say "being male is meaningful and needs a word that does not include female people regardless of their inner gender".

I don't spend much time discussing the impact of TM (other than when someone tries to use them as a gotcha, or if the topic is particular individuals who use their transition as a political platform to agitate for a version of trans rights which is da aging to female rights) because I personally don't have as strong concerns about female people identifying as men. And that is because men have not historically had men-only provisions to protect them from women (protect in the widest sense here, meaning not just physical risk but also being marginalised and disempowered by a dominant social group), and therefore in practical terms men stand to lose very little from transmen redefining manhood to include them , while women lose a lot when womanhood is redefined to include trans women.

More generally I also don't believe in arguing on behalf of a group to whom I don't belong, because I believe putting words in others' mouths takes away their voice and agency. Allies should support authentic voices not speak over them. Ironic for a woman to worry about male agency but there you are.

I do find it very concerning that young (say under 30) FTM people are having gender reassignment surgery because it's drastic body modification and I think a society where people feel they need to become a facsimile of the opposite sex to be happy is doing something wrong. I would of course say the same about young MTF.

That said, although I think the harms of gender ideology fall mainly on transmen when the transition is FTM, and on female people when the transition is MTF (and I wonder what those two groups might have in common that would be very clear if we hadn't repurposed the words for our sex), I realise that if I reject TWAW (or rather the undefining of sex that comes with it) because of the harm it risks to female rights, I must reject TMAM because they are two sides of the same coin.

So there you go. I don't especially worry about MTF as a general concern for male people because the impact is mostly limited to the TM themselves. I do have concerns about those TM when they medically transition. Overal, if society said "hey, given the underlying differences in physical power and in how society treats male and female people, we are going to decide TMAM and FTM is fine but TWANW and MTF will come with some limitations", and if we put a lot more support around young women identifying as men with a view to finding non-medical outcomes that make them happy with surgery as a last resort, I'd actually be fine with that. But realistically, TRAs will never separate TWAW from TMAM exactly because it allows them to pretend that female people encroaching on male is simply the equal and opposite side of male people encroaching on female.

Well firstly, it isnt. I've said repeatedly I don't agree with mixed spaces, mixed prisons and I haven't said this yet, but mixed races.

So that's not the case.

It's also not the case about the surgery - I'm surprised you didn't know that over 90 percent dont physically transition, because that is usually the trump card of "see , they just want to steal our rights).

The problem is that people who support trans people and their rights cannot win. We just can't. Everything we say is twisted, reworded, and countered. Your post is actually a thoughtful one, and I find myself agreeing with certain parts, but the sides are so divided now there will never be a compromise.

But it isn't the TRA's asking you to use pronouns in an email, is it? I don't use batshit feminists in arguments so why do you always jump to TRA's?

Why is a human being in an office who wants to be referred to as she rather than he copping for all of this?

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 21:59

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 21:55

Trans men aren't truing to steal women's rights.

Although they are unhelpful in that respect.

Unhelpful to your cause because they prove that actually, it's not about stealing anything, I assume.

You are mixing in nutty TRA's in america with someone in an office who just wants to be called she rather than he. Why?

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:00

it's almost like people believe that refusing to use pronouns in emails or acknowledge them at all will stop the TRA's. it won't.

It will just punish innocent people who ultimately don't want anything from you other than a bloody word.

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 22:02

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 21:59

Unhelpful to your cause because they prove that actually, it's not about stealing anything, I assume.

You are mixing in nutty TRA's in america with someone in an office who just wants to be called she rather than he. Why?

No, unhelpful to women because you can't logically accept that trans men are men whilst maintaining that trans women are not women.

And because they're just the other side of the "men and women are identities" coin, which is sexist nonsense.

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 22:03

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:00

it's almost like people believe that refusing to use pronouns in emails or acknowledge them at all will stop the TRA's. it won't.

It will just punish innocent people who ultimately don't want anything from you other than a bloody word.

I want a bloody word too.

A word for female people which male people do not use to describe themselves.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:10

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 22:03

I want a bloody word too.

A word for female people which male people do not use to describe themselves.

Do you feel the same about trans men then? does your respect and care for women only apply in certain scenarios?

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:10

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 22:02

No, unhelpful to women because you can't logically accept that trans men are men whilst maintaining that trans women are not women.

And because they're just the other side of the "men and women are identities" coin, which is sexist nonsense.

well, maybe, apart from the fact that I never actually said anything like that.

JenniferPlantain · 01/07/2022 22:11

titchy · 30/06/2022 15:44

It forces those struggling with their gender identity to decide their pronouns when they may not be publicly ready to do so.

Its bad for females who suffer from unconscious bias as it is.

It buys into the idea that everyone has a gender identity.

What other personal characteristics will be asked to be declared in an email signature to show allyship - ethnicity, religion, disability?

Chef’s kiss to this 🙏🏼

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:22

JenniferPlantain · 01/07/2022 22:11

Chef’s kiss to this 🙏🏼

I dont disagree, at all.

However, by that point, I'm an atheist.

So if someone chooses to be a Christian do I tell them they're not?

Btw, the disability one is a foul card.

Marynotsocontrary · 01/07/2022 22:27

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 19:58

And what about people who are trans but don't want to announce it?

But if they don't want to announce it why would they want to change their pronouns and attach the new ones to their work email signature etc?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 22:35

It's also not the case about the surgery - I'm surprised you didn't know that over 90 percent dont physically transition, because that is usually the trump card of "see , they just want to steal our rights).

I do know the % of trans people who have surgery is low. I still think it's something to be avoided where possible especially when young. I really don't like the current media trend to celebrate TM mastectomy scars as an edgy and progressive shorthand for LBGT inclusion because it glamourises what is actually significant and radical surgery. (Like most older women I have friends and relations who have had masectomies).

The problem is that people who support trans people and their rights cannot win. We just can't. Everything we say is twisted, reworded, and countered. Your post is actually a thoughtful one, and I find myself agreeing with certain parts, but the sides are so divided now there will never be a compromise.

There can, but the compromise has to involve recognising that there are limits to how far transition can bring one into the realm of the opposite sex and to go beyond those limits, especially for MTF, even if done by a nice and respectful person, is to pass from inclusion and tolerance into appropriation and dominance.

I genuinely think the right answer is separate words for the separate things. Both are real, or at least feelings real enough to be worth naming, and they are clearly not the same thing so why not name both separately and start exploring gender identity in its own right rather than a sort-of-but-isnt cousin to sex?

But it isn't the TRA's asking you to use pronouns in an email, is it? I don't use batshit feminists in arguments so why do you always jump to TRA's?

Actually I do it out of respect for trans people, because I don't want to accuse them en masse of the TRA batshit. However, unfortunately as long as the dominant voices telling society what trans people must have are those of TRAs, that's the arguments we who push back need to engage with.

Why is a human being in an office who wants to be referred to as she rather than he copping for all of this?

Sadly, because she wants to use a word that has significant meaning to other people. I'm sure she means no harm but she is causing harm because she is not an island and whether she admits it to herself or not she is taking part in a social change that hurts women.

In real life yes, I'll probably smile and be polite but I can tell you that smile will be exactly the same one I need when I have to listen to a sexist comment or joke, or get talked over by a man saying what I just said.

You know the smile I am sure. It's the one that says "I do not do this by choice but because society has taken away my right to say no. I know this not fair and but if I say anything about it or even look unhappy about it it will be turned into my problem and it will be painted as my unreasonable reaction to a tiny little thing, because women's right to be angry about men's treatment of them is less than men's right to not be made uncomfortable by women".

Greengagesnfennel · 01/07/2022 22:35

Because it feels like I'm being bullied into it. And I've never given in to bullies and don't plan to change that.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:39

Marynotsocontrary · 01/07/2022 22:27

But if they don't want to announce it why would they want to change their pronouns and attach the new ones to their work email signature etc?

You've misread me, I think.

I fundamentally disagree with people being forced to announce their pronouns on emails - for that reason.

My point was I think if they choose to give it, it should be respected. Only on MN would that be a huge deal.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:39

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 22:35

It's also not the case about the surgery - I'm surprised you didn't know that over 90 percent dont physically transition, because that is usually the trump card of "see , they just want to steal our rights).

I do know the % of trans people who have surgery is low. I still think it's something to be avoided where possible especially when young. I really don't like the current media trend to celebrate TM mastectomy scars as an edgy and progressive shorthand for LBGT inclusion because it glamourises what is actually significant and radical surgery. (Like most older women I have friends and relations who have had masectomies).

The problem is that people who support trans people and their rights cannot win. We just can't. Everything we say is twisted, reworded, and countered. Your post is actually a thoughtful one, and I find myself agreeing with certain parts, but the sides are so divided now there will never be a compromise.

There can, but the compromise has to involve recognising that there are limits to how far transition can bring one into the realm of the opposite sex and to go beyond those limits, especially for MTF, even if done by a nice and respectful person, is to pass from inclusion and tolerance into appropriation and dominance.

I genuinely think the right answer is separate words for the separate things. Both are real, or at least feelings real enough to be worth naming, and they are clearly not the same thing so why not name both separately and start exploring gender identity in its own right rather than a sort-of-but-isnt cousin to sex?

But it isn't the TRA's asking you to use pronouns in an email, is it? I don't use batshit feminists in arguments so why do you always jump to TRA's?

Actually I do it out of respect for trans people, because I don't want to accuse them en masse of the TRA batshit. However, unfortunately as long as the dominant voices telling society what trans people must have are those of TRAs, that's the arguments we who push back need to engage with.

Why is a human being in an office who wants to be referred to as she rather than he copping for all of this?

Sadly, because she wants to use a word that has significant meaning to other people. I'm sure she means no harm but she is causing harm because she is not an island and whether she admits it to herself or not she is taking part in a social change that hurts women.

In real life yes, I'll probably smile and be polite but I can tell you that smile will be exactly the same one I need when I have to listen to a sexist comment or joke, or get talked over by a man saying what I just said.

You know the smile I am sure. It's the one that says "I do not do this by choice but because society has taken away my right to say no. I know this not fair and but if I say anything about it or even look unhappy about it it will be turned into my problem and it will be painted as my unreasonable reaction to a tiny little thing, because women's right to be angry about men's treatment of them is less than men's right to not be made uncomfortable by women".

I actual took in your post and found it quite thought provoking. thank you.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 22:40

I do think it's something we have to start accepting though.

I don't agree with forcing everyone to do it, but if someone chooses it, I think you need to respect that - if only on a professional front. Is that really that controversial?

Oceanus · 01/07/2022 22:58

CataTonic58 · 30/06/2022 15:39

Just be careful with the typos. He/she/tit.

Hahahah! That was funny! Though I'm not sure I'm allowed to say that outloud anymore!

TomPinch · 02/07/2022 07:56

Because my email sig isn't a place for making political statements.

If supporting the LGBTQIA+ community isn't a matter of politics but is more fundamental then why an I being asked to show support for this particular minority and not other minorities with protected characteristics?

JustDanceAddict · 02/07/2022 08:06

It’s not for me.
my name is obviously female so therefore I am a woman. That’s it.
if others want to state pronouns that’s up to them but it reminds me of how my mum used to sign off - with a (Mrs) after her full name. Makes me feel it’s ‘old fashioned’ in that way, just use the person’s given name in response.,

maddening · 02/07/2022 08:11

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 21:58

Well firstly, it isnt. I've said repeatedly I don't agree with mixed spaces, mixed prisons and I haven't said this yet, but mixed races.

So that's not the case.

It's also not the case about the surgery - I'm surprised you didn't know that over 90 percent dont physically transition, because that is usually the trump card of "see , they just want to steal our rights).

The problem is that people who support trans people and their rights cannot win. We just can't. Everything we say is twisted, reworded, and countered. Your post is actually a thoughtful one, and I find myself agreeing with certain parts, but the sides are so divided now there will never be a compromise.

But it isn't the TRA's asking you to use pronouns in an email, is it? I don't use batshit feminists in arguments so why do you always jump to TRA's?

Why is a human being in an office who wants to be referred to as she rather than he copping for all of this?

But no one wants to stop a person in an office including pronouns in the email, it is not wanting to be compelled to use it.

Do whatever you like with you email, but do not vilify or threaten or impede the career of someone that does not want to. In doing so you become the monster.

brookstar · 02/07/2022 09:27

But no one wants to stop a person in an office including pronouns in the email, it is not wanting to be compelled to use it.

Do whatever you like with you email, but do not vilify or threaten or impede the career of someone that does not want to. In doing so you become the monster.

Absolutely.
Lots of my colleagues have their pronouns in their email .... fair play to them. I have no issue with it.
I don't want to though, and that should be fine too.

Weirdwonders · 02/07/2022 09:45

Because I swear we’d just agreed that having to add our marital status to documents was irrelevant and reductive and now we’re being asked to do this instead.

beautyisthefaceisee · 02/07/2022 09:54

brookstar · 02/07/2022 09:27

But no one wants to stop a person in an office including pronouns in the email, it is not wanting to be compelled to use it.

Do whatever you like with you email, but do not vilify or threaten or impede the career of someone that does not want to. In doing so you become the monster.

Absolutely.
Lots of my colleagues have their pronouns in their email .... fair play to them. I have no issue with it.
I don't want to though, and that should be fine too.

I'm with you.

@maddening , that is not the case. There are a number of people on this thread alone who refuse to respect and use other peoples pronouns.