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Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

916 replies

landantan · 30/06/2022 15:37

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

OP posts:
beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 19:58

Marynotsocontrary · 01/07/2022 18:57

If only trans people use preferred pronouns in their signatures to avoid being misgendered, it singles them out as being trans. If we all do it as standard it takes away the stigma. It’s a simple thing we can do to make peoples lives easier.

But don't many trans people change their name to match their chosen gender? When Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn it was obvious she wanted to use female pronouns too. Isn't the name alone enough?

And what about people who are trans but don't want to announce it?

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 19:58

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 19:20

If only trans people use preferred pronouns in their signatures to avoid being misgendered, it singles them out as being trans. If we all do it as standard it takes away the stigma. It’s a simple thing we can do to make peoples lives easier.

Really not my problem.

It would make everyone else's lives a lot easier if trans people realised that no one actually has a gender identity which matches their genitals.

You should be in charge of the UN, you'd solve it all in a day with those mind blowing views.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 19:59

I don't agree with pronouns being forced on emails, and I think as PP said it singles people out who might not want to.

However, I have zero time or respect for anyone who refuses to acknowledge other peoples' pronouns and seems to think they are oh so terribly clever.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 20:04

I think it's pretty arrogant to take the only word that exists for members of the opposite sex to yourself and claim it for your "identity".

Your identity has nothing to do with them, but now you are forcing them to pretend they share it, or else relinquish the word for what they actually are.

👏exactly.

The issue is not, and never has been, that trans- and cis- women (meaning here only women who do self identify as cis, not female people who others assume are cis) want a name and set of pronouns for the inner gender identity they share.

The issue is that they want to use the exact ones that were already being used for people of the female sex and even worse, don't even allow those people of the female sex who don't share that inner gender a new name and pronoun to use instead. Why is it not enough for trans- and cis- women to be recognised for who they are? Why is it so important to deny that female people who are not gender dysphoric but also don't fit in with the trans- and cis- version of womanhood exist as a group in their own right as well?

1nsertusername · 01/07/2022 20:06

Its ridiculous

We are debating what email signatures pronouns to use when the Rich are getting richer,we are on the brink of WW3, and the environment is collapsing a

If all people have to worry about is their pronoun their life if fucking good!

This is a trivial issue whipped up to distract us from the true issues in the world.

I wish people would get as angry and vocal about the disparity between the rich and the poor as they do about being "misgendered"

The world is in freefall. Wake the hell up people!! We need to campaign the real issues not pronouns!

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:09

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 20:04

I think it's pretty arrogant to take the only word that exists for members of the opposite sex to yourself and claim it for your "identity".

Your identity has nothing to do with them, but now you are forcing them to pretend they share it, or else relinquish the word for what they actually are.

👏exactly.

The issue is not, and never has been, that trans- and cis- women (meaning here only women who do self identify as cis, not female people who others assume are cis) want a name and set of pronouns for the inner gender identity they share.

The issue is that they want to use the exact ones that were already being used for people of the female sex and even worse, don't even allow those people of the female sex who don't share that inner gender a new name and pronoun to use instead. Why is it not enough for trans- and cis- women to be recognised for who they are? Why is it so important to deny that female people who are not gender dysphoric but also don't fit in with the trans- and cis- version of womanhood exist as a group in their own right as well?

It's not all about you.

Anyone who believes that trans people looked at women and thought oooooooh let's steal their terms is immature, deluded and arrogant.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:14

I understand the overall fears about womens' rights and agree with most of them - safe spaces, prisons, etc.

But I think the problem is the argument has now been taken too far and it makes it something hard to get behind

There are tranmen too, btw. Far more common in young people than transwomen.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 20:21

It's not all about you.

No, but it is also about me, and the many many other people like me. Why are trans people's desire for honest acceptance more important than ours?

Anyone who believes that trans people looked at women and thought oooooooh let's steal their terms is immature, deluded and arrogant.

But that is literally what happened. In order to become Women, with an automatic right to everything that women have a right to, rather than just Live as Women, with limits on what that entitles them to, trans women (or rather the TRAs that speak for them) had to redefine Woman not just for trans women but for every woman.

Perhaps you are too young to know this but I have seen it happen in my lifetime. The language has changed in line with the demands that are being made.

Anyone who doesn't see that is naive, deluded and arrogant, and anyone who sees it but doesn't care is a misogynist and arrogant .

Clymene · 01/07/2022 20:24

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:14

I understand the overall fears about womens' rights and agree with most of them - safe spaces, prisons, etc.

But I think the problem is the argument has now been taken too far and it makes it something hard to get behind

There are tranmen too, btw. Far more common in young people than transwomen.

The Toronto Police Service requests the public's assistance locating a missing woman.* Isobella Degrace, 27, was last seen on Saturday, June 25, 2022, at 3 a.m., in the Ryerson Avenue and Bathurst Streetet_ area.* She is described as 5’10", with a thin build, shaggy blonde hair, and a full goatee. She was last seen wearing a black t-shirt and grey pants.*

Do you see the problem now?

Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails
beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:28

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 20:21

It's not all about you.

No, but it is also about me, and the many many other people like me. Why are trans people's desire for honest acceptance more important than ours?

Anyone who believes that trans people looked at women and thought oooooooh let's steal their terms is immature, deluded and arrogant.

But that is literally what happened. In order to become Women, with an automatic right to everything that women have a right to, rather than just Live as Women, with limits on what that entitles them to, trans women (or rather the TRAs that speak for them) had to redefine Woman not just for trans women but for every woman.

Perhaps you are too young to know this but I have seen it happen in my lifetime. The language has changed in line with the demands that are being made.

Anyone who doesn't see that is naive, deluded and arrogant, and anyone who sees it but doesn't care is a misogynist and arrogant .

ALSO like you. Nobody is any less or more important - we are all equal. So where's your compromise, given that you literally deny their identity?

I don't disagree re your second point. I don't disagree about many of the barriers it poses. But I do disagree with outright denial.

MIsogynist gets bandied about like candy. I see you didn't address my question on the existence of transmen (and the fact that young trans people in this country are overwhelmingly FTM). Without using the misogny card, can you explain how that relates to your post?

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:29

Clymene · 01/07/2022 20:24

The Toronto Police Service requests the public's assistance locating a missing woman.* Isobella Degrace, 27, was last seen on Saturday, June 25, 2022, at 3 a.m., in the Ryerson Avenue and Bathurst Streetet_ area.* She is described as 5’10", with a thin build, shaggy blonde hair, and a full goatee. She was last seen wearing a black t-shirt and grey pants.*

Do you see the problem now?

Could you explain how that relates into pronouns in emails? Or the fact that the overwhelming majority of people using pronouns in email in Britain will be FTM?

Is it the case that women have rights but only until they make choices that dont suit you?

Clymene · 01/07/2022 20:29

Identity isn't real. Ask Rachel Dolezal.

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 20:29

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:09

It's not all about you.

Anyone who believes that trans people looked at women and thought oooooooh let's steal their terms is immature, deluded and arrogant.

Except that is exactly what they did.

Clymene · 01/07/2022 20:35

Happy to explain. If we respect pronouns in emails, we have to respect them everywhere. So in Canada, when respecting pronouns is ubiquitous, we have a clearly male person being searched for by the police who is referred to as she.

It's a lie. This person is clearly a he, not a she. This is a person with a penis. A man.

If I call him he, what's going to happen? He's going to feel a bit hurt and sad? So what, frankly.

Because he says he's a she, he's going to feel entitled to use female facilities because he is demanding everyone treats him as a woman. Even though everyone can see he isn't.

As for the fact that there are more and more girls thinking they can identify out of being female, I've got news for them. Men don't care. They're still going to rape you and grope you and pay you 30% less for the same job. Your pronouns mean jackshit.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:36

Clymene · 01/07/2022 20:29

Identity isn't real. Ask Rachel Dolezal.

tick tick tick goes the bingo card of trans on MN - throw in straw arguments, detract from the main issue.

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:36

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 20:29

Except that is exactly what they did.

Are you able to account then how the majority of young trans people are FTM?

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:38

Clymene · 01/07/2022 20:35

Happy to explain. If we respect pronouns in emails, we have to respect them everywhere. So in Canada, when respecting pronouns is ubiquitous, we have a clearly male person being searched for by the police who is referred to as she.

It's a lie. This person is clearly a he, not a she. This is a person with a penis. A man.

If I call him he, what's going to happen? He's going to feel a bit hurt and sad? So what, frankly.

Because he says he's a she, he's going to feel entitled to use female facilities because he is demanding everyone treats him as a woman. Even though everyone can see he isn't.

As for the fact that there are more and more girls thinking they can identify out of being female, I've got news for them. Men don't care. They're still going to rape you and grope you and pay you 30% less for the same job. Your pronouns mean jackshit.

You are making things up.

Not every trans person wants to be in your spaces, be in your prisons, steal your 'rights'. They just don't. Absolutely there are some that are, and there are some hideous nutters on social media, but there are people that don't.

I don't agree with mixed spaces, but I don't deny people'sidentity.

"As for the fact that there are more and more girls thinking they can identify out of being female, I've got news for them. Men don't care. They're still going to rape you and grope you and pay you 30% less for the same job. Your pronouns mean jackshit." So you do admit FTM is more common, yet that doesn't seem to link to your point about spaces....? That aside, that post is nothing except bitter.

BellePeppa · 01/07/2022 20:58

Clymene · 01/07/2022 20:24

The Toronto Police Service requests the public's assistance locating a missing woman.* Isobella Degrace, 27, was last seen on Saturday, June 25, 2022, at 3 a.m., in the Ryerson Avenue and Bathurst Streetet_ area.* She is described as 5’10", with a thin build, shaggy blonde hair, and a full goatee. She was last seen wearing a black t-shirt and grey pants.*

Do you see the problem now?

I’m sorry that person is missing but they are not a woman and it’s things like this that make people roll their eyes and dismiss trans women as attention seeking and insincere (unfortunate for the genuine ones). A man cannot just call himself Isobella and that makes him a woman. 😡

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 20:58

beautyisthefaceisee · 01/07/2022 20:36

Are you able to account then how the majority of young trans people are FTM?

Internalised misogyny?

Misguided belief that they can escape sex based oppression by identifying out of womanhood?

WishILivedInThrushGreen · 01/07/2022 21:10

I'm just going to carry on regardless, like I've always done.
If someone gets offended then I'll apologise and move on.

I can't be dealing with this pronoun malarkey.
Sorry if that offends but the truth is I feel that the whole situation is complicated, complicit and treacherous to navigate.

Clymene · 01/07/2022 21:16

Bitter? I'm not bitter. I'm angry at men for trampling over woman's spaces and I feel pity for girls who think they can identity out of womanhood.

Bitter is a new one.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 21:40

ALSO like you. Nobody is any less or more important - we are all equal. So where's your compromise, given that you literally deny their identity?

I deny theirs only to the degree that they deny mine. That's what you are missing. There is no compromise not because one side or the other is unreasonable, but because the two definitions of the word woman are mutually exclusive. If a trans woman is a woman then I am not, and vice versa. (And as an aside, given that we are all equal, I'm really interested why your preferred solution here is the one that takes away from female people to the benefit of male?)

IMO the only way to resolve this paradox is to have different words.

Personally I believe that the female bodied meaning of the word, being the one that has been in use for hundreds of years and most importantly the one in use when the various women-only rights and protections were created, is the one that should stand and a new word coined for the gender identity that trans- and cis- women share. (The latter of course would have both words, because since sex and gender are different clearly one person can have both a gender and a sex and wouldn't it be wonderful to just have separate words for these separate things and stop fighting about it?)

But I'd accept a brand new shiny word for female people if necessary as long as we can use it to support female rights, spaces and protections.

I see you didn't address my question on the existence of transmen (and the fact that young trans people in this country are overwhelmingly FTM). Without using the misogny card, can you explain how that relates to your post?

"Without mentioning that society is sexist, explain why different sexes may result in different dynamics in ostensibly the "same" social scenario?" 😂

I entirely support mens' right to say "being male is meaningful and needs a word that does not include female people regardless of their inner gender".

I don't spend much time discussing the impact of TM (other than when someone tries to use them as a gotcha, or if the topic is particular individuals who use their transition as a political platform to agitate for a version of trans rights which is da aging to female rights) because I personally don't have as strong concerns about female people identifying as men. And that is because men have not historically had men-only provisions to protect them from women (protect in the widest sense here, meaning not just physical risk but also being marginalised and disempowered by a dominant social group), and therefore in practical terms men stand to lose very little from transmen redefining manhood to include them , while women lose a lot when womanhood is redefined to include trans women.

More generally I also don't believe in arguing on behalf of a group to whom I don't belong, because I believe putting words in others' mouths takes away their voice and agency. Allies should support authentic voices not speak over them. Ironic for a woman to worry about male agency but there you are.

I do find it very concerning that young (say under 30) FTM people are having gender reassignment surgery because it's drastic body modification and I think a society where people feel they need to become a facsimile of the opposite sex to be happy is doing something wrong. I would of course say the same about young MTF.

That said, although I think the harms of gender ideology fall mainly on transmen when the transition is FTM, and on female people when the transition is MTF (and I wonder what those two groups might have in common that would be very clear if we hadn't repurposed the words for our sex), I realise that if I reject TWAW (or rather the undefining of sex that comes with it) because of the harm it risks to female rights, I must reject TMAM because they are two sides of the same coin.

So there you go. I don't especially worry about MTF as a general concern for male people because the impact is mostly limited to the TM themselves. I do have concerns about those TM when they medically transition. Overal, if society said "hey, given the underlying differences in physical power and in how society treats male and female people, we are going to decide TMAM and FTM is fine but TWANW and MTF will come with some limitations", and if we put a lot more support around young women identifying as men with a view to finding non-medical outcomes that make them happy with surgery as a last resort, I'd actually be fine with that. But realistically, TRAs will never separate TWAW from TMAM exactly because it allows them to pretend that female people encroaching on male is simply the equal and opposite side of male people encroaching on female.

Circumferences · 01/07/2022 21:42

Anyone who believes that trans people looked at women and thought oooooooh let's steal their terms is immature, deluded and arrogant.

Well it is pretty deluded to insist people use pronouns for you that are completely counter-intuitive

It's immature to think anyone cares about your inner sense of gender identity when all anyone can see is your sex.

It's arrogant to demand you are granted rights eg women's rights to same sex spaces, when you are not of that sex.

Trans people deserve respect and adjustments but forcing everyone around you to bend over backwards to deny reality and pointlessly put their sex-based pronouns on their workplace name tags is not the way to go about it.

babyjellyfish · 01/07/2022 21:46

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/07/2022 21:40

ALSO like you. Nobody is any less or more important - we are all equal. So where's your compromise, given that you literally deny their identity?

I deny theirs only to the degree that they deny mine. That's what you are missing. There is no compromise not because one side or the other is unreasonable, but because the two definitions of the word woman are mutually exclusive. If a trans woman is a woman then I am not, and vice versa. (And as an aside, given that we are all equal, I'm really interested why your preferred solution here is the one that takes away from female people to the benefit of male?)

IMO the only way to resolve this paradox is to have different words.

Personally I believe that the female bodied meaning of the word, being the one that has been in use for hundreds of years and most importantly the one in use when the various women-only rights and protections were created, is the one that should stand and a new word coined for the gender identity that trans- and cis- women share. (The latter of course would have both words, because since sex and gender are different clearly one person can have both a gender and a sex and wouldn't it be wonderful to just have separate words for these separate things and stop fighting about it?)

But I'd accept a brand new shiny word for female people if necessary as long as we can use it to support female rights, spaces and protections.

I see you didn't address my question on the existence of transmen (and the fact that young trans people in this country are overwhelmingly FTM). Without using the misogny card, can you explain how that relates to your post?

"Without mentioning that society is sexist, explain why different sexes may result in different dynamics in ostensibly the "same" social scenario?" 😂

I entirely support mens' right to say "being male is meaningful and needs a word that does not include female people regardless of their inner gender".

I don't spend much time discussing the impact of TM (other than when someone tries to use them as a gotcha, or if the topic is particular individuals who use their transition as a political platform to agitate for a version of trans rights which is da aging to female rights) because I personally don't have as strong concerns about female people identifying as men. And that is because men have not historically had men-only provisions to protect them from women (protect in the widest sense here, meaning not just physical risk but also being marginalised and disempowered by a dominant social group), and therefore in practical terms men stand to lose very little from transmen redefining manhood to include them , while women lose a lot when womanhood is redefined to include trans women.

More generally I also don't believe in arguing on behalf of a group to whom I don't belong, because I believe putting words in others' mouths takes away their voice and agency. Allies should support authentic voices not speak over them. Ironic for a woman to worry about male agency but there you are.

I do find it very concerning that young (say under 30) FTM people are having gender reassignment surgery because it's drastic body modification and I think a society where people feel they need to become a facsimile of the opposite sex to be happy is doing something wrong. I would of course say the same about young MTF.

That said, although I think the harms of gender ideology fall mainly on transmen when the transition is FTM, and on female people when the transition is MTF (and I wonder what those two groups might have in common that would be very clear if we hadn't repurposed the words for our sex), I realise that if I reject TWAW (or rather the undefining of sex that comes with it) because of the harm it risks to female rights, I must reject TMAM because they are two sides of the same coin.

So there you go. I don't especially worry about MTF as a general concern for male people because the impact is mostly limited to the TM themselves. I do have concerns about those TM when they medically transition. Overal, if society said "hey, given the underlying differences in physical power and in how society treats male and female people, we are going to decide TMAM and FTM is fine but TWANW and MTF will come with some limitations", and if we put a lot more support around young women identifying as men with a view to finding non-medical outcomes that make them happy with surgery as a last resort, I'd actually be fine with that. But realistically, TRAs will never separate TWAW from TMAM exactly because it allows them to pretend that female people encroaching on male is simply the equal and opposite side of male people encroaching on female.

Well said.

ZeldaFighter · 01/07/2022 21:53

I doubt that John and Melissa will be misgendered. Sam, Alex and Jo might be so perhaps choose an unambiguous name if you're not sure.