Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

Why is male asking me to deny what I see and hear?

I’ve got no issue with trans people and their rights at all but that doesn’t extend to me having to partake in their beliefs about themselves, do something I’m uncomfortable with and that conflicts with my own beliefs, or being expected to forego my own sex based rights to privacy, dignity and safety

@beautyisthefaceisee

"maddening , that is not the case. There are a number of people on this thread alone who refuse to respect and use other peoples pronouns "

Firstly my post is in relation to requiring others to use pronouns in their email signatures which was the point of the OP, I don't see anyone saying you can't do what you want in YOUR email signature, it is being compelled to use it in their own signatures that is the issue.

As for using pronouns, again compelled speech is the issue. But in a conversation with you I would use "you" or "your" which is not gendered or sexed in any case, or your name. I would be polite.

But I don't believe in gender ideology, so just like any religion I would not support blasphemy laws or compelled speech for any religion. No issue with people living as they want, apart from where it encroaches in existing rights such as same sex spaces, sports and then medicalisation and radicalisation of children and young or mentally vulnerable people, but if you want to present any way you want that is obviously no issue. I would fight for your right for a third space or sport.

Yes, PP have said they refuse to accept other people's identity.

I'm with you on the rest.

However, what would you use when speaking about them?

Probably use their name, and I would probably go as far as use their pronouns, but should not be condemned for a slip up or not remembering. But I would not say a man is a woman, happy to use trans woman.

I do get that it seems to be such a little allowance, but this now goes beyond that, it is an ideology that is doing great harm to vulnerable people and requires mental gymnastics and is also detriments others eg disabilities that make it hard to do those mental gymnastics, impacts people with language barriers.and people are having their lives impacted for stating a fact of reality. So then you come to drawing a battle line. But this is the fault of the TRA movement imo. It has gone too far, a lot of what is happening is an utter disgrace, tradegy, scandal and there are real victims being created every day, so to fight that you have to draw a line and for many that includes pronouns, so to demand pronouns becomes compelled speech.

Oh and I reject cis - that is a slur imo and imposing an ideology that I do not subscribe to.

Cisgender, despite how its twisted, is an accepted word of use - it's not designed to be offensive. I completed my LGBTQI Youth Scotland training the other week and it was given as the word.

It simply means identifying as the same sex you were born into.

You can't call someone a trans woman. I mean you can in discussions like this, but for example in a work place, I'm not sure that would fly. Re the slip up - Not many in IRl get upset by accidental misgendering. That's been made up by feminists on here.

I don't agree with your views, but that is a very thoughtful post and I would certainly be interesting in reading them. And there's the key, and as much as MNers play the card of "I don't have to be kind", ultimately IRL, you listen to people if you find them respectful, intelligent and are interested in what they have to say - ie yourself.

I find it offensive @beautyisthefaceisee. Respect goes both ways.

Its an attempt to give me a gender identity which I reject. It's also an attempt to put women into a subcategory. I've already seen some TRAs referring to women and cis women. Women being transwomen ie male people.

We have a word. Women is just fine. We don't need a prefix.

Identify - establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.

What you are saying is that people that identify as trans are identifying as the opposite. As they are 'self' identifying as something they are not. I don't identify as a female, I just am. Anyone who says they 'identify' as something usually means they are not that thing, otherwise they'd just 'be'.

You went on training to indoctrinate you into an ideology. And you've swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Congratulations, you are now one of the Borg.

What is the difference between identifying as a female, and actually being one?

I think I’d reject being referred to as ‘cis’, just as much as being asked to put my pronouns in my email sig. it’s the same thing…. Essentially being asked to state publicly that i buy into gender ideology. And I don’t.

Sorry, my first sentence should read ‘what is the difference between me identifying as a female, and actually being one.’

That’s just their view. It is not fact. Same as Stonewall’s views are not fact. It is their belief. Which they are perfectly entitled to hold and use when describing themselves and people who follow their beliefs.

they are not entitled to impose it on others. I do not and never will consent to being referred to as “cis”. I find it grossly offensive and also inaccurate as I do not have a gender identity. That is my view which I am also entitled to hold and ask be respected.

I don't identify with being female, I just am. It's not an identity.

"That’s just their view. It is not fact. Same as Stonewall’s views are not fact. It is their belief. Which they are perfectly entitled to hold and use when describing themselves and people who follow their beliefs.

they are not entitled to impose it on others. I do not and never will consent to being referred to as “cis”. I find it grossly offensive and also inaccurate as I do not have a gender identity. That is my view which I am also entitled to hold and ask be respected."

I agree. I would find being referred to as "cis" offensive.

And I agree that I don't identify as female- I just am female.

I am very grateful that my work hasn't considered asking staff to include pronouns in email signatures- and I would be refusing to do so.

Womens rights are under threat as it is. I am not engaging with anything that will make that worse.

First reply nails it. I won’t do it because putting ”my pronouns” after my name does not just signify “I am a woman” or “I identify as a woman” or whatever, it signifies “I believe in transgenderism”. It’s like a “Jesus take the wheel” bumper sticker.

Thankfully, while our workplace suggests it in yammer posts they don't put any pressure on to do it. The only people I have seen actually do it are in our local HR and one member of the board when they do online global comms (large multinational)..

I'm not sure why you've waded into a respectful and interesting conversation from two people on opposite sides with this rude, ignorant and patronising post.

It's an internet forum. Anyone can post.

I can't see how someone saying that they think cis is a slur and you telling them that it is 'the word' is respectful in any way. Or does your disrespect now identify as respect?

It's not my problem if you aren't able to rationalise what you have been taught on your training, and just take it as read that the people indoctrinating you are right.

Who ran this training that you seem to have taken as 'the way' from here on in?

I've just received an official email. It was signed "Claire (Surname), she/her".

Why do they feel the need to - or be made to - put their pronouns after their name which is already identifiable as female? How many men are called Claire? If the person who sent this email was transitioning, they possibly wouldn't name themselves "Claire". If the person was identifying as female and wanted to be known as 'Claire', then just their name would suffice.

I would not put my pronouns in an email signature or on a badge because doing so indicates I agree with an ideology that sees men allowed into women’s single sex spaces, men into women’s prisons, male athletes taking away female athletes’ prizes, men taking women’s spots on bursaries, awards and other schemes designed to level the playing field.

It indicates that I agree with an ideology that is homophobic as it denies same sex attraction.

It indicates I agree with an ideology that encourages children down a pathway to debilitating health outcomes - telling them they need to change their bodies to fit in with stereotypes.

It indicates I agree with an ideology that’s a misappropriation of privilege- taking ‘queer theory’ from American academia and imposing on it the lives of people who be negatively impacted by it- usually the most marginalised people in societies. De-sexing language is an example of this misappropriation of privilege - when you remove the word ‘woman’ from medical literature designed to inform women about critical health checks this impacts on women with lower literacy levels, women with special educational needs, women whose first language isn’t English. Etc.

In short I reject everything about this fundamentally misogynist, homophobic, ‘luxury beliefs’ ideology and that includes ‘announcing’ pronouns.

I dont identify as a woman. I just am one.

To me, this is the core of it.

I'm a woman. That's just a fact. Always have been and always will, whether I like it or not, or however I 'identify'.

Sex isn't an "identity". It's a biological fact.

1. No woman identifies into lower pay, sexual harassment, femicide, or domestic violence. Call yourself whatever you want, but stop pretending you aren't being offensive when you clearly are.

1. By using cis you are acknowledging there is a difference between women and trans women, which makes trans women are women invalid and you transphobic. Scotland needs to update their training.

Cisgender, despite how its twisted, is an accepted word of use

I don't accept it.

You are deliberately stirring up trouble on what was a respectful discussion and I am not remotely interested in your goading.