Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

The chat about ponies and whatever certainly is
Exactly, and that was referenced in what was quoted so personally thought it was perfectly clear where and what you meant.

pronouns are for raging narcissists

Nope, I don't think so @beautyisthefaceisee. On the one hand, you said that it's absolutely offensive for me to suggest that you wouldn't take anything a parent said as honest and truthful; on the other, you said that people who are anti trans can exaggerate.

Given that you seem to have stuck me in the anti trans camp for sticking up for women's rights, I can't see how you can also believe me.

No I didn't say anything was absolutely offensive, actually. And I also haven't stuck you in any camp. You are grasping at straws and making things up.

It was in direct response to my posts and you know it.

It was in direct response to my posts and you know it

bit of both

you saying there are threads full of people taking the piss and lola saying she hadn’t seen any

I think you are both right, in different ways

I am frankly somehwat disappointed that you are implying that i in any way condone TRA's. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here but it's certainly not working. I think your tactics are disingenous.

Again, I am not saying you ARE a TRA supporter. I know you are not. I'm saying that because TRA demands are currently the dominant ones that are forming the public debate, unless you explicitly condemn the parts you disagree with your voice as an ally will be seen to condone the full package whether you want it to or not.

I'm trying to get you to see, as I said a few posts ago, that you may think you are separate yourself from TRA batshit but unless you do something about that, unless you say "I am a trans ally but I don't agree with this", that distinction only matters in your head.

And no, I didn't say join our cause. I am not trying to bully you into anything. I just want you to realise that when you treat women not deploying appropriate levels of kindness while being attacked by TRA batshit as being as bad or worse than the batshit itself, you kind of lose the right to say the batshit can't get brought up.

That's fine, Rhino.

The sad thing is we'd probably fundamentally agree with many things in real life.

But given your continued (disingenuous) insistence that if I don't DO what people wat me to do then I must be a TRA supporter. You are not giving me the respect I have given you - which further proves my point that the feminists are often the ones doing the damage.

I'm intrigued to know what you think it is that I must do that I'm not.

@beautyisthefaceisee I can only apologise for paraphrasing. Here's what you actually typed:

I would never dismiss a personal experience out of hand, so I sont know why you needed to precede that. I believe any person who talks about their child.

And I would also be sympathetic to an autistic child who physically cannot express the change, or for any other reason ie global development cannot handle it. That said, I do think parents who are anti trans can exaggerate.

And then you went on to talk about primary school children specifically.

The article mentions a child who is unwilling to use the correct gender. Assuming no ASN, i stand behind any sanction of this absolutely. Wilful misgendeeing is a totally different thing.

You are talking about primary school children. Wilful misgendering deserves sanctions? People who try and enforce their ideology belong nowhere near children.

But given your continued (disingenuous) insistence that if I don't DO what people wat me to do then I must be a TRA supporter. You are not giving me the respect I have given you - which further proves my point that the feminists are often the ones doing the damage.

Again, no. I'm not saying you actively support the TRA agenda. I'm saying to agree in public with the TRA elements you agree with (for example, pronouns), and disagree internally but not say so in public with the parts you disagree with has the same outcome as if you actually were a supporter. And what I want you to DO (if you were to do anything) is to be as open about the elements of TRA batshit you reject when you are with "your side" as you have been here. Because if you can be honest about your reservations with your enemies (rhetorical flourish, we are not really enemies), surely it must be safe to be honest about those reservations with your friends, right?

And I'm also saying that it's not fair to castigate women on FWR who are not behaving as well as you think they should when faced with the TRA batshit, then not allow them to bring that same batshit into the conversation because you personally don't support it.

But I do agree we probably would fundamentally agree on many things. I have enjoyed talking to you, especially being challenged to properly interrogate and structure my thoughts about trans men, and I hope I've given you some things that, while you may not agree with me, have caused you to think as well.

I believe you.

I have no reason to believe an unnamed source in the paper.

Yes, wilful, deliberate misgendering does deserve sanctions. Absolutely.

I have a (newly promoted) colleague who calls everyone "them". I constantly reminder her of my sex and others, especially when they have this pronoun madness in an email signature. Our joint LM believes in the eradication of gender from business/public life, even though she's a woman.

You did make me think and reflect, until you repeatedly suggested I condone TRA's.

How do you know what I do or don't say in public? or to my friends? or what they say? You are reaching, you really are. It's almost as if you can't accept that you can be pro and accepting of trans but also back women.

I absolutely can castigate women who don't behave well towards trans people based on TRA batshit because they are two separate things!

www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/opinion/the-far-right-and-far-left-agree-on-one-thing-women-dont-count.html

for the lurkers - this article might not remain accessible for long. It’s food for thought - and pronouns are one step on the road that diminishes women.

How do you know what I do or don't say in public? or to my friends? or what they say?

Well, because you were quite adamant that it was ridiculous to expect you and your friends to go to the places (IRL or online) where woman are being castigated for saying the things you yourself believe in and say you agree with them.

I absolutely can castigate women who don't behave well towards trans people based on TRA batshit because they are two separate things!

To you they are. But can you really blame the women who are sick of the sort of shit on terfisaslur.com for being a little less than 100% polite at times? Nothing on this board comes anywhere close to the hatred and vitriol there, or in the comments I see myself in pro-trans twitter, Medium, Facebook etc. Can I assume you condemn those people just as roundly? (And I do mean condemn them there in those places where the abuse is said, not just inside your head).

Just in case of doubt, I'm not instructing you to condemn them, or say anything, or do anything at all. I'm just telling you what I would expect you to be doing based on the values you claim to have.

It's almost as if you can't accept that you can be pro and accepting of trans but also back women

And no, you are reading that based on your own projections. I've said numerous times that I think it's entirely possible. I gave a couple of examples I think.

But it is not possible as long as the TRA version of supporting trans people is the one that is setting the political agenda. And that's why getting to that place of genuine acceptance and support that works for both women and trans people has to start with trans people and their allies joining women and saying NO! Because until that happens, the TRA voice will continue to shape the terms of the debate and continue to drive us all to a place that cannot allow compromise.

Nothing on this board comes anywhere close to the hatred and vitriol there, or in the comments I see myself in pro-trans twitter, Medium, Facebook etc.
So what if it doesn't?
You're really taking the argument well look what they're saying over there, we're not as bad as them so therefore it's all OK?!
It's not a competition. 😕

You're really taking the argument well look what they're saying over there, we're not as bad as them so therefore it's all OK?!

Not at all. I'm saying if you condem what's being said here but not what's being said there which IS far worse, then your problem is not in fact what is being said, but who is saying it to who.

No, because I'm about as interested in hate sites as flying to the moon. I'm not interested in their opinion, I don't give a shit what they have to say, and I have no interest in entertaining them.

Why on earth would I?

I've said I don't believe you're an extremist feminist, but I could ask the same question - why are you not over on the feminist boards addressing nasty threads about trans people? I wouldn't expect you to 'prove' you don't agree with them, that's not your repsonsiblity!

I understand the TRA is setting the agenda, and I understand where you're coming from (I think) but I fundamentally disagree that it's one camp or the other.

But it goes without saying we condemn it. The fact I've got more in my life than to go over to those sites and argue with nutters doesn't mean anything.

I really don't want to call people 'it'.. it seems incredibly rude, but equally to give them a multiple genders 'they' is surreal and actually quite difficult to do in a conversation

No, because I'm about as interested in hate sites as flying to the moon. I'm not interested in their opinion, I don't give a shit what they have to say, and I have no interest in entertaining them
Exactly, why on earth would I go to sites like that willingly?
The comment you're replying to makes no sense because if we're condemning things said here, it stands to reason we'd hate slurs and abuse elsewhere.
Just because people can be against any GC" abuse doesnt mean they automatically are fine with any TRA abuse, that's a daft take.

Get over yourself

This.

Yet when people question aspects of trans, all hell breaks loose if I suggest transohobia!