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Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

916 replies

landantan · 30/06/2022 15:37

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

OP posts:
FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/07/2022 01:01

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 00:38

This.

Yet when people question aspects of trans, all hell breaks loose if I suggest transohobia!

The point is, to both you and BadJanet, that you say you condemn abuse and slurs in general but only actively scold the women who are reacting against the anti-woman aspects in the current construction of trans rights, leaving the worse abuse and slurs against those women in mainstream (not hate sites) pro-trans spaces unchallenged.

It's not a case of "they are worse, so we are OK", my question is why is it more important to you to condemn what is said here than what is said there?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/07/2022 01:03

Don't feel you have to answer that BTW. It's more a question you could ask yourself.

KnittingWords · 04/07/2022 01:07

How on earth are you still accepted as a teacher, of children, with you accepting women as being labelled "cis", a subdivision of our own sex class?

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 01:23

my question is why is it more important to you to condemn what is said here than what is said there?
I've already answered that, did you miss it or are you ignoring it?
Will give you the benefit of the doubt and answer again - why would we willingly go to hate sites to argue with extremists?
I do not want to do that.
Just because I can condemn what is said here, doesn't mean I can't condemn what is said there.
Of course I condemn threats or abuse wherever it is coming from.
Including over there and other places.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 01:24

Oh, and it's not scolding on here for goodness sake.
I'm not scolding you, what a bizarre take.
It's called hearing a different opinion, I'm sorry if you don't like that though.

KnittingWords · 04/07/2022 01:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 01:33

What was that comment in reference to?

AlisonDonut · 04/07/2022 07:09

KnittingWords · 04/07/2022 01:07

How on earth are you still accepted as a teacher, of children, with you accepting women as being labelled "cis", a subdivision of our own sex class?

And that a 5 year old needs to be sanctioned if they 'misgender' someone.

These people are dangerous to the next generation.

We teach kids not to lie then force them to call a man 'she'.

Deeplydippy74 · 04/07/2022 07:14

No I can't because I an not, against them.
I have children's friends who want identify as they for example and anything that makes life easier fir them is good imo.

AlisonDonut · 04/07/2022 08:14

My stepdaughters best friend thought she was a cat for several years. We did not feed her cat food.

Kids have imaginative play but it isn't reality. What is going on with people that they lose their rational minds if someone says the word 'trans'.

Howcoldloveis · 04/07/2022 08:26

AlisonDonut · 04/07/2022 08:14

My stepdaughters best friend thought she was a cat for several years. We did not feed her cat food.

Kids have imaginative play but it isn't reality. What is going on with people that they lose their rational minds if someone says the word 'trans'.

I wanted to marry my dog when I was a kid.😬

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 08:37

Which proves that the whole thing isnt really about the precious belief of feminism about gender and something they hold so dear as they claim. Its about them.

No, @beautyisthefaceisee, it proves nothing of the kind.

Feminism exists, and is unfortunately necessary, because female people have been oppressed by male people throughout human history.

We can't accept or even pretend to accept people's beliefs about gender without accepting the redefinition of women not as female people, but as people who choose to identify as something.

That's incredibly insulting. There is no shared identity that all women have. And we don't experience sexism because of how we choose to identify.

What about the many many trans women who have no interest in being in your spaces?

What about them?

Eliot page , since you mention him , aas dead named on twitter by some arsehole with the justification that Ellen's films stil have her name (obviously). Therss a thread on it with people saying how wonderfully brave the arsehole is. If Eliot is no risk pt you, why cant he be left the fuck alone?

Elliot Page is no risk to me because I understand very clearly that Elliot is a woman.

I feel deeply uncomfortable with people like Elliot glamourising extreme body modification though, and the example that that sets to young women and girls.

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 08:39

GoodJanetBadJanet · 03/07/2022 21:12

The only issue with trans men is the idea that you can opt out of womanhood, which does us all a massive disservice
Why?
Why does it "do us all a massive disservice" what SOMEONE ELSE is?
How ridiculous.
I don't suddenly want to opt out of womanhood just because I know of the existence of trans men, it's like you're treating women as victims and it's ugh.
"Does us all" - you don't speak for all women so don't come across like you do by using the word all.
It's also seriously patronising, like they can't know their own mind and body and just want to "opt out of womanhood".

(Oh and I'm using the word Ugh because I can't articulate right now how disgusting your whole argument is.)

Why does it do us all a massive disservice?

Because if a woman is something you merely identify as, we don't need feminism.

We can eradicate the pay gap, female genital mutilation and obstetric violence just by all identifying as men!

Oh no wait, we can't do that, can we?

We aren't oppressed because we choose to be, because we "identify as women". We are oppressed because of our female bodies.

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 08:41

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 21:17

This. this this this this.

We care about women and we support their rights and we stand behind them and we value them...............until they want to be men.

Then we patronise them.

Interestingly enough, if PP do believe that that's what it is, where is the help and support for them?

I have a trans MAN friend (PP struggled with this earlier) and if you heard his story and what he had to put his body through to be able to live his life (which he now is doing, he's amazing) - how on earth anyone can think he did that cause he just didn't fancy being a woman is beyond me.

It doesn't matter how much they want to be men.

They aren't men and they never will be.

The only way we can accept them as men is if we accept that a man is something other than a male person, and a woman is something other than a female person.

And that's not something I will ever accept, because it is deeply harmful to women.

LovinglifeAF · 04/07/2022 09:16

Eliot page , since you mention him , aas dead named on twitter by some arsehole with the justification that Ellen's films stil have her name (obviously). Therss a thread on it with people saying how wonderfully brave the arsehole is. If Eliot is no risk pt you, why cant he be left the fuck alone?

see this is what I don’t get. Why it’s not enough for everyone to have to accept the person as having changed sex now, but that it somehow erases the past too. It’s like 1985 ministry of truth. EP might not like that EP is a biological female and had a female name but it is what it is. Why does stating reality and the past make someone an arsehole?

I’m not the biggest fan of Caitlyn Jenner but at least she doesn’t expect people to forget she was a bloke.

LovinglifeAF · 04/07/2022 09:16

1984 obviously 😆

ExitChasedByABee · 04/07/2022 09:26

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 00:38

This.

Yet when people question aspects of trans, all hell breaks loose if I suggest transohobia!

But surely asking or questioning aspects of trans is not the same as transphobia?? It would then imply that you’re shutting down any debate or discussion by even suggesting that. And then express faux innocence when “all hell breaks loose”.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 09:31

We can eradicate the pay gap, female genital mutilation and obstetric violence just by all identifying as men!
Er, yeah, being trans doesn't really work like that does it.
I mean if that was true we'd all do it
I'm certainly not going to want to identify as a man just to get away from being a woman!
Because, what some people don't seem to understand, is that we're not all the same.
Whereas some of us say wouldn't mind if they were a man, as they wouldn't feel any different, some like myself would mind awfully.

ExitChasedByABee · 04/07/2022 09:51

GoodJanetBadJanet · 03/07/2022 23:42

Nothing on this board comes anywhere close to the hatred and vitriol there, or in the comments I see myself in pro-trans twitter, Medium, Facebook etc.
So what if it doesn't?
You're really taking the argument well look what they're saying over there, we're not as bad as them so therefore it's all OK?!
It's not a competition. 😕

@GoodJanetBadJanet I’m confused by what you’re trying to say? I am sure you are ok with calling out any hate speech so I am sure you can also do it over there? Just as I’m sure you would on any other site that you’re on if someone is being transphobic? Besides, who said it was a competition?

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 10:47

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 09:31

We can eradicate the pay gap, female genital mutilation and obstetric violence just by all identifying as men!
Er, yeah, being trans doesn't really work like that does it.
I mean if that was true we'd all do it
I'm certainly not going to want to identify as a man just to get away from being a woman!
Because, what some people don't seem to understand, is that we're not all the same.
Whereas some of us say wouldn't mind if they were a man, as they wouldn't feel any different, some like myself would mind awfully.

No, it doesn't work like that at all.

Trans men still experience misogyny and trans women still experience male privilege.

Female people - even trans men - do not benefit from this redefinition of men and women in any way.

reop · 04/07/2022 11:12

I just completed a work form and it asked me to state my pronouns but there was only the male and female options.

It was a required option with no way to bypass and it stated they are working on a. Gender inclusive solution.

AlisonDonut · 04/07/2022 11:51

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 09:31

We can eradicate the pay gap, female genital mutilation and obstetric violence just by all identifying as men!
Er, yeah, being trans doesn't really work like that does it.
I mean if that was true we'd all do it
I'm certainly not going to want to identify as a man just to get away from being a woman!
Because, what some people don't seem to understand, is that we're not all the same.
Whereas some of us say wouldn't mind if they were a man, as they wouldn't feel any different, some like myself would mind awfully.

So you agree that women who identify as men aren't treated as men and still experience the pay gap, female genital mutilation etc etc etc...because that's transphobic.

Another ally showing how transphobic they really are.

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 15:22

KnittingWords · 04/07/2022 01:07

How on earth are you still accepted as a teacher, of children, with you accepting women as being labelled "cis", a subdivision of our own sex class?

Because the word "cisgender" is in our bloody training, Knitting. We got our gold award in June and it's the training.

I assume you arent suggesting I openly defy our new policy and lose my job just to keep a random on MN happy?

Where did I say I personally accept cis?

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 15:23

ExitChasedByABee · 04/07/2022 09:26

But surely asking or questioning aspects of trans is not the same as transphobia?? It would then imply that you’re shutting down any debate or discussion by even suggesting that. And then express faux innocence when “all hell breaks loose”.

You're missing my point.

If I don't stand completely in defence of feminists, completely and utterly without question, I'm supporting the TRAs. a PP said that.

But you can question any aspect of trans and I can't suggest that is transphobic?

So is the rule if you're on the feminist side, you can say what you like but if you're not, you can't?

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 15:24

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 08:37

Which proves that the whole thing isnt really about the precious belief of feminism about gender and something they hold so dear as they claim. Its about them.

No, @beautyisthefaceisee, it proves nothing of the kind.

Feminism exists, and is unfortunately necessary, because female people have been oppressed by male people throughout human history.

We can't accept or even pretend to accept people's beliefs about gender without accepting the redefinition of women not as female people, but as people who choose to identify as something.

That's incredibly insulting. There is no shared identity that all women have. And we don't experience sexism because of how we choose to identify.

What about the many many trans women who have no interest in being in your spaces?

What about them?

Eliot page , since you mention him , aas dead named on twitter by some arsehole with the justification that Ellen's films stil have her name (obviously). Therss a thread on it with people saying how wonderfully brave the arsehole is. If Eliot is no risk pt you, why cant he be left the fuck alone?

Elliot Page is no risk to me because I understand very clearly that Elliot is a woman.

I feel deeply uncomfortable with people like Elliot glamourising extreme body modification though, and the example that that sets to young women and girls.

"what about them". Well, yes, what about them. Because they don't matter, do they?

Elliot is not a woman. That is transphobic.

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