Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

I don't know what you're talking about but I am on AIBU and the Feminism section every day and I have NEVER seen any such thread as 'taking the piss out of trans people'.
Seriously?
You're either fibbing or not paying attention to the threads then.

@beautyisthefaceisee Obviously there is a difference between trans men and trans women though.

It's so obvious it shouldn't even need spelling out.

Trans men aren't a threat to male people in men's spaces.

Trans women are a threat to female people in women's spaces.

We don't have single sex spaces to protect male people from female people.

The only issue with trans men is the idea that you can opt out of womanhood, which does us all a massive disservice. But nobody is worried that Elliot Page might assault a man in the men's toilets or win a medal in a men's category at the Olympics.

Thanks.

Which proves that the whole thing isnt really about the precious belief of feminism about gender and something they hold so dear as they claim. Its about them.

What about the many many trans women who have no interest in being in your spaces?

Eliot page , since you mention him , aas dead named on twitter by some arsehole with the justification that Ellen's films stil have her name (obviously). Therss a thread on it with people saying how wonderfully brave the arsehole is. If Eliot is no risk pt you, why cant he be left the fuck alone?

No, no I dont. Not everyone, obviously. But let's not pretend theres zero and everyone in feminism is there in good faith

I don't know what you're talking about but I am on AIBU and the Feminism section every day and I have NEVER seen any such thread as 'taking the piss out of trans people

that’s possibly because you, like me, think there is a difference between ‘genuine’ trans people and someone who identifies as a cat…or pony

No, no I dont. Not everyone, obviously. But let's not pretend theres zero and everyone in feminism is there in good faith

i wasnt the one dealing in absolutes

The only issue with trans men is the idea that you can opt out of womanhood, which does us all a massive disservice
Why?
Why does it "do us all a massive disservice" what SOMEONE ELSE is?
How ridiculous.
I don't suddenly want to opt out of womanhood just because I know of the existence of trans men, it's like you're treating women as victims and it's ugh.
"Does us all" - you don't speak for all women so don't come across like you do by using the word all.
It's also seriously patronising, like they can't know their own mind and body and just want to "opt out of womanhood".

(Oh and I'm using the word Ugh because I can't articulate right now how disgusting your whole argument is.)

I don't share my pro nouns in my email, even though it's been requested of us for the same reason I refuse to use Miss/Ms/Mrs.. I don't want people judging me for my gender before meeting me.

That said. This is my issue, and I support colleagues who choose to share whole heartedly. I've not come across an employer who forces this for all their staff. Mostly they encourage it but it's each person's own choice.

We were doing well in respectful debate, could you keep it that way?

This. this this this this.

We care about women and we support their rights and we stand behind them and we value them...............until they want to be men.

Then we patronise them.

Interestingly enough, if PP do believe that that's what it is, where is the help and support for them?

I have a trans MAN friend (PP struggled with this earlier) and if you heard his story and what he had to put his body through to be able to live his life (which he now is doing, he's amazing) - how on earth anyone can think he did that cause he just didn't fancy being a woman is beyond me.

oh, and because its all about ME. ME ME ME ME ME.

They dont give a toss about the transpeople who are collateral.

@beautyisthefaceisee

I believe any person who talks about their child.

That said, I do think parents who are anti trans can exaggerate.

Which of these are true? As a parent of an autistic child who I guess you think is anti trans, am I exaggerating or to be believed?

We care about women and we support their rights and we stand behind them and we value them...............until they want to be men.
Then we patronise them.
Yes, it's about supporting the "right type" of women.
Also women who are supportive of trans rights.
Patronised too, infantalised even.
Supportive of women but only the ones we approve of. 🙄

Are you deliberately misreading my posts at this point?

Correct.

My favourite argument is the outrage of why trans people don't speak up and join their cause.

Can't think why.

They dont give a toss about the transpeople who are collateral.

Please stop saying that. It is not true.

We have been put in an impossible position.

We didn't start this.

We didn't ask for womanhood to be redefined to exclude us unless we lie and say we experience a commonality of mind with trans women that in reality we simply do not feel.

We didn't ask that male people who feel something that they believe makes them "the same" be given the right to access our spaces, to take our opportunities, to speak for us politically, to silence our voices if we say "no, I'm sorry, the thing you think you recognise between us is not something we recognise in ourselves".

But it happened.

So we either perform the polite actions that you feel are necessary to avoid trans people being "collateral" and in doing so capitulate to the wider ideology, which you say most trans people do not share yet do not in public refute, or we protect ourselves.

And yes, the threat to female political voice is from trans women not trans men. But as I posted to you last night, unless the dominant voices driving the trans demand to redefine sex are prepared to separate TWAW and TMAM, we have to say no to both.

So rather than just telling us that we are bad, nasty women for considering our own reality and political existence to be as important as your trans friend's, tell us how you think we can protect trans people while also protecting our own truth as female people who exist in a way that male people do not (and vice versa). I'll happily do it. But for now, these small things you think will have no cost, to me seem to have a huge cost, that of capitulating to a movement that seeks to unpower and undefine me.

By doing pretty much what you've done rhino - making your point without being mocking of, abusive to or generally denying the identity of trans people.

As I said above, YOU might not do that, but a quick scour of even these boards will show you that lots and lots of people do.

And that's what I say no to.

making your point without being mocking of, abusive to or generally denying the identity of trans people
As I said above, YOU might not do that, but a quick scour of even these boards will show you that lots and lots of people do.
And that's what I say no to.
Agree with this
fully expects these points raised to be completely ignored by some though and complains about tone policing instead

We were doing well in respectful debate, could you keep it that way?

I haven’t been disrespectful in the slightest

The chat about ponies and whatever certainly is. It's certainly irrelevant to what we are talking about.

My favourite argument is the outrage of why trans people don't speak up and join their cause.

If you are referring to me, it's not outrage.

I'm not asking you why.

I'm not demanding you join us or outraged that you don't. I'm just explaining to you that you the argument you were trying to make - that TRAs are nothing to do with you so we shouldn't bring them up - doesn't hold water.

Because your outrage at being told your position, whether you want it to or not, backs up the demands of TRAs is only justified if you are actually saying No to the TRAs.

Because while it may make you comfortable in your own head to know that the TRA batshit is not what you believe, until this mass of trans people and allies who you say do not agree with the TRAs actually stand up and say so, until you decide that the most important challenge is to the TRA batshit rather than to the women who do not deploy appropriate levels of kindness while being attacked by that batshit, you are implicitly condoning the TRA agenda.

You may not like that, but you can't in good faith deny it. Say "not in my name" but only quietly inside your own head, and you might as well not say it at all.

So be honest. Make your choice. You can't have it both ways. Decide to stand up against TRA batshit or stop pretending you are not a part of it.

@FlirtsWithRhinos

Nothing i have said in the last two pages refers to you. I find you to be respectful, thought provoking, intelligent and I've enjoyed your posts.

What you're quoting is a more general discussion with Janet in regards to the mockery on the boards that other PP are claming doesn't happen.

I absolutely can deny it in good faith.

I am frankly somehwat disappointed that you are implying that i in any way condone TRA's. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here but it's certainly not working. I think your tactics are disingenous.

For what it's worth, I will defend innocent trans people before I defend women who try and bully me into their cause by suggesting that if I don't, I must be a supporter of TRA.

Not cool.

Each woman who opts out is saying

Woman means something other than biology

Reinforcing the stereotypes that women are -beyond biology - somehow different

There was one the other day where a number of posters claimed they were going to identify as carrots, horses etc and picking pronouns and taking the piss

I was talking to lola

if you think I’m saying things that are irrelevant its probably better to just ignore them

i obviously don’t think its irrelevant or I wouldn’t be talking to lola about it