Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

I think your username suits you, cause you are a bit of a doughnut.

Like I care! Honestly if this is your working level of insult, I'm not really sure anyone can help you.

Nobody on the feminist boards is interested in supporting and accepting trans.

They are into eradicating trans, including the ones who are no threat to them whatsoever.

Not true. I am interested. I think it doesn't even matter if gender is "real" or not, the fact people experience makes it real enough to care about. I'm even (genuinely not taking the piss here) OK with the funny genders like catgender because if you stop thinking of gender as a new, funkier cousin to sex and start thinking it's a way of expressing something about your personality and the types of people you feel kinship with, why wouldn't a cat be a useful symbol for that?

I'd love to get to a place where we can explore the relationship between gender and sex, if there even is one, properly. But we cannot do that as long as the dominant narrative, the one that is driving the training and the police and the politics, is that TWAW and TMAM because that's not a relationship with sex, that's a domination of sex and for female people in a still-sexist culture that's not leading to a good place.

@beautyisthefaceisee
Not engaging with your below the belt disabliity question. I'm surprised Rachel Dolezal hasn't been mentioned yet, she's usually next on the MN handbook.
Yes it is offensive isn’t it! So stop perpetuating the nonsense that people can be born into a wrong body

No. Some people are born into a body that they are unhappy in. I know someone like that, a friend. He would laugh at your "perhaps it's because of the oppression of women". He finds it utterly preposterous that other people think they know better than he does about how he feels in his own head.

Right - so your friend doesn’t think people can know what’s going on inside his head. But he definitely knows he feels like a woman despite never having been inside a woman’s head….?

Right - so your friend doesn’t think people can know what’s going on inside his head. But he definitely knows he feels like a woman despite never having been inside a woman’s head….?

I think beauty's friend is a trans man.

I don't know how you can say that with a straight face. Every day on MN there are numerous threads just taking the absolute piss out of trans people or denying that is exists as a concept in the first place, this very thread is an example of that. Refusing to use people's pronouns indeed.

Re your second part, I agree with you. I agree with you on the sex spaces thing, and so do many trans people.

So why are they copping for the views of the TRA's?
You do realise that advocating for third space doesn't actually do anything to the TRA's and the nutters? They don't care.

Why can't trans people join you if they agree with you on spaces? Why must it be us vs them?

There was one the other day where a number of posters claimed they were going to identify as carrots, horses etc and picking pronouns and taking the piss.

I think as a clearly intelligent and kind person which shines through in your posts you don't necessarily see the spite in some of the posts cause I certainly have.

I know no-one has said that, but at the same time, I can see why trans people wouldn't want to. I don't think I would.

But why does it matter whether Mandeep is male or female?

You reply to the email "Dear Mandeep, thank you for your email blah blah blah ......"

If you phone them when the phone is answered either they say "Hello Mandeep speaking" and you say, "Hi Mandeep great to finally talk to you" or they just say "Hello" and you say "Hi can I speak to Mandeep please?"

One unisex name no pronouns needed.

And if Mandeep is female she can benefit from her name being unisex while she communicates via email if she doesn't add pronouns. Much like female Sam and Chris and Nicky can, bad luck for male Jessie he might just experience a bit of mansplaining.

If you have to be reminded why you hate them so much they can't bother you that much in the first place. 🙄

OP did exactly what she set out to do, but it's backfired because it has on the whole been a reasonable and respectful debate.

@beautyisthefaceisee

I agree it has been a respectful debate and therefore I did get what I wanted.

As someone who says they work with children @beautyisthefaceisee, I wondered what your take was on this

Times today - Scotland section www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4582130-times-today-scotland-section?msgid=-4582130#-4582130

(And I'd be grateful if you didn't dismiss it as untrue out of hand because my autistic child has also been called transphobic for forgetting a classmate had changed pronouns)

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

@beautyisthefaceisee

It is not true that my post about the number of gender non-conforming children ‘desisting’ if allowed to go through puberty is bollocks, nor is it bollocks that there is a high correlation between gender non-conforming children and eventual same sex attraction as an adolescent.

The study linked above examines this and refers to previous studies with similar outcomes.

Your insistence that a ‘trans child’ is the pre-adult version of a ‘trans adult’ is difficult to substantiate.

There are significant differences in the reasons that adolescent girls typically identify as the opposite sex, and the numbers who do, compared to teenaged boys (it’s called ROGD - rapid onset gender dysphoria) and is closely correlated with a co-existing condition such as trauma, autism. There are theories that it is also largely driven by social contagion or a desire to escape from the pornified world adolescent girls see women are expected to live in.

There are significant differences in the reasons and numbers of men identifying as women in late middle age compared to women who do so (where are all the female Eddie Izzards?)

The reasons that men and women become trans identified as adolescents and adults therefore are NOT a smooth transition from being a ‘trans identified child’.

Adults heavily invested in authenticating gender ideology have imposed the concept that any deviation from gender conformity as a child is a sign that they are ‘trans’. They are not- children are just expressing themselves as they are, and coming up against boxes imposed on their sex due to stereotypes. As the study above shows many of these children subsequently discover a same sex attracted sexuality as adolescents.

Gender ideology is sometimes referred to as ‘transing away the gay’ - by pushing these children down a pathway to change their bodies to resemble a different sex rather than allow them to remain healthy gay or lesbian adolescents/ adults.

He is, as ibe already said, but Pps cant cope with that because hes absolutely no threat to them whatsoever so they cant jump up and down about him. Despite the fact they claim you canr change so in their minds as feminists they should care ahout the fact he was a woman hes now a man so they dont care ahout his feelings.

If he ass a trans woman they'd be going bonkers.

More proof that trans women are the only thing they are interested in, because its all about them. The fact that tbe majority of actual transitioned and school aged trans are FTM is something they ignore (or when they acknowledge it, they are dismissed as oh it mist be because they want to escape our sexist society).

Ah, a clever wee 'says they're, another for the bingo card, as if I would make a mumsnet account and then invent my profession.

I would never dismiss a personal experience out of hand, so I sont know why you needed to precede that. I believe any person who talks about their child.

I dont work in a primary school, but I do work with that age in out of school care in holidays .

Re the autism, that's also something I have a lot of experience in.

I would never support any child, autistic or otherwise, being punished or talked about publicly for making a mistake. That is outrageous, and despite our differences I'm sorry that your child went through that.

However, the article is very patchy. It appears to go from children who are unable to use the pronouns as the pronouns have changed several times which would be fine (nobody, including the child, has any grounds for complaint with accidental misgenderig). I would also be sympathetic to an autistic child who physically cannot express the change, or for any other reason ie global development cannot handle it. That said, I do think parents who are anti trans can exaggerate. I have worked in a base for autistic teenagers where one in trans. Zero have been unable to use the correct terminology. Children tend to be better st it than others.

The article mentions a child who is unwilling to use the correct gender. Assuming no ASN, i stand behind any sanction of this absolutely. Wilful misgendeeing is a totally different thing.

Oh ffs

There is a big difference between transmen and transwomen

One is male

Makes don't belong in female spaces
Females do - transmen are therefore fundamentally different to transwomen

You and yes we are very aware that it's predominantly younger girls and older men who transistion

A sex difference you might say

And there is a lot of concern that those girls are as transgender as many older women who are being dismissed snd ignored and belittled when they question the "treatment " those children drr were man's

I dont need your help :) or anyone elses for that matter.

Happy to engage with posters in respectful and reasonable debate, which we have managed despite your attempts to disrupt.

I see.

Because the whole trans issue comes down purely the toilets, cause that affects YOU.

Fuck all the other issues, cause it's all about YOU.

Got you.

Sorry, I canf make sense of this.

If you're not going to bother to even read my posts, I dont know why you're questioning me.

I know you are @FlirtsWithRhinos . your posts are very thoughtful and something I can get on board with.

Obviously there is a difference between trans women and trans men.

Female people are no threat to male people in men's spaces.

Male people are a threat to female people in women's spaces.

They are into eradicating trans, including the ones who are no threat to them whatsoever

you know thats not the case