Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

PS, its "done well or did well" , not "done good".

No, I pointed out that the PP's position that people being women means they want to have a vagina means that you think that's all women are.

Me? (and to the other PPs who asked this) I judge my identity on my heart - my kindness, the way I make people feel, the way I dress, the colours I wear, the way I speak.

But then I'm not trans, and I don't spend my days picking apart what other people think. I just respect it and let them live their lives. Mad eh.

if I said a brunette is someone with dark hair, would you assume ‘all’ I think they are is dark hair?

No - hence why I don't understand someone thinks that being trans is about wanting a certain sexual organ. Your metaphor backs up my argument, not PP's.

@AlisonDonut your username is appropriate.

b being utterly ridiculous and transphobic and calling us "borgs", all you are actually doing is shutting down discussion. Do you regularly shut down the views of other women?

Me? (and to the other PPs who asked this) I judge my identity on my heart - my kindness, the way I make people feel, the way I dress, the colours I wear, the way I speak.

So give us examples of what of that criteria is male and what's female?

I just respect it and let them live their lives.

I don't think anyone has a problem
with letting people live their lives. It's recasting language norms and definitions because of a nebulous understand of gender that's the issue.

😂

no, it really doesn’t. My point is you can make a physical observation- women have vaginas, brunettes have dark hair- without it being reductionist. Which goes against what you’re saying.

I can't, because I'm not bloody trans. Have you thought about asking/reading about people who are?

No, people definitely do.

See ridiculous responses upthread because i dared to point out that the most recent secondary schools training uses cisgender as a term, not a slur, as if I made the bloody training myself!

It does.
But I'm not derailing, as you're missing the point.

So only trans people can define male and female? Well this gets more bonkers by the minute

No, people definitely do.

But based on what? What's their understanding of what's male/female coming from?

So only trans people can define male and female?

Not the first time I've heard this, has to be said.

We're back to 'being male/female is totally undefinable, except when transpeople tell us what they are.'

A right Orwellian nightmare we have on our hands here.

Speaking personally, the reason I cannot in good conscience use other people's self-selected pronouns or accept the label "cis" for myself is because they are framed by the narrative that trans women are women and that that womanhood supersedes any consideration of body sex.

If the narrative was instead "trans women are gender dysphoric men who are more comfortable being seen and living as women", and alongside that was open, honest and over time evolving assessment about when it was fine to include trans women with women and when it was not appropriate, I'd be far more accommodating.

In that world a cis woman would be a woman without gender dysphoria, a trans man would be a woman with gender dysphoria, a trans women would be a man with gender dysphoria. Preferred pronouns would be exactly what they should be, not a statement that a male person IS a woman (which unavoidably redefines womenhood for all women) but simply a hint on how someone prefers to be addressed.

No drama, no negation, just acceptance and support.

they can for themselves, surely?

I was talking to my auntie about this tonight.

I have a FTM friend who literally all his life all he wanted to do was change to M. Now you can analyse that to within an inch of his life but ultimately since changing 10 years ago he is happy, healthy and nothing like the person he was before.

He is also angry at the wankers on twitter because they make people like him fade into the background while we all mock and sneer at it.

Another friend of mine is gay, came out at 28 because of prejudice in our home town.

I can't imagine or tell you what its like to be gay, because I'm not, nor would I pretend to. But I respect his right to love who he chooses.

In the same way I respect my friends right to live as he chooses.

We dont question anyone else within an inch of their life about they feel the way they do, be it politics, religion, or any other thing that involves identity and being - so why trans?

And if it's because you fear your spaces and safety - I stand with you on that. I don't agree with mixed spaces, prisons, sports, etc etc.

I just really strongly disagree with this constant questioning, mocking and faux wanting to understand when really whatever anyone says you will pick it apart.

I have a FTM friend who literally all his life all he wanted to do was change to M

They can't change sex. That's biologically impossible.

They can however live as they want to and should be supported in doing so, while respecting sex based rights.

Its the attempt to conflate these positions that's the problem.

Is that all you took from my bloody post??! I honestly give up

Re your respecting sex based rights, I've already said - HE DOESNT WANT TO BE IN YOUR SPACES. HE AGREES WITH YOU ABOUT PEOPLE THAT DO. HE JUST WANTS TO BE CALLED (INSERT NAME HERE) AND BE REFERRED TO AS A MAN.

Wait til its someone you love, and then report back with your "they cant change sex" you ignorant, cold person.

And you wonder why the divide is so big.

No, because words have actual meaning.

So you can dictate to them but they cant decide for themselves.

Got you.

Wait til its someone you love, and then report back with your "they cant change sex" you ignorant, cold person.

Im not denying basic biological fact for anyone. That's ridiculous. If that makes me 'ignorant and cold' then I'll take that. At least I respect the truth.

HE DOESNT WANT TO BE IN YOUR SPACES. HE AGREES WITH YOU ABOUT PEOPLE THAT DO. HE JUST WANTS TO BE CALLED (INSERT NAME HERE) AND BE REFERRED TO AS A MAN.

Firstly, no need to shout. That's not respectful argument.

Secondly, sure, but plenty of TRAs do and that's the problem. The movement pushed it too far and yes women are pushing back. That's exactly why the divide is so big, not a thing to do with women standing up for their own sex based rights. But you've revealed a lot there in that last post about how much you value those.

So you can dictate to them but they cant decide for themselves.

Biology is dictating. Not the poster.

And if it's because you fear your spaces and safety - I stand with you on that. I don't agree with mixed spaces, prisons, sports, etc etc.

But unfortunately that's where politely pretending that trans women are women leads us.

No, FGS, they cannot decide whether they are male or female. No one can.

Female means the childbearing sex and make means the sperm producing sex. Nobody gets to choose which one they are and I don't think we do trans people any favours at all by pretending it is possible.

Wait til its someone you love, and then report back with your "they cant change sex" you ignorant, cold person.

Sorry for coming back to this, but can't you see how ridiculous a position this is. We're supposed to deny biological reality to be nice?

I find it a totally unnecessary pandering to a tiny (0.85%?) section of the population. If those people who want to use a different pronoun to their natal sex then fine, you do that, and we can choose whether or not to use that pronoun or just speak to you. There is an aggressive minority of so called transwomen, the ones like the MP, who dress like men, were born as men, have facial hair & who seem to hate women, and no doubt these are the ones who want a badge with she/her on because no one would think to refer to them as that by looking at them. These are the ones intent on forcing their way into women’’s spaces, prisons, hospital wards, sports events, rape crisis groups, DV groups etc. It is totally fine to be a trans person, but not to force your way into women’s hard won spaces. Transwomen ie men, are the issue. The vast majority are totally physically intact men, have gone through male puberty with all its physical advantages, yet consider it reasonable to try to compete against women.