Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

You dont have to.

My point was the reason it's used (in schools, which is where mu knowledge of it comes from) is that it isnt intended as a slur.

I do however accept your right to nor use it or be offended by it, same as maddening.

I'm going to take this as a genuine question.

Identifying as female while being born in the male sex.

TRAs are not indicative of the rest of us though.

I didn't say you were a TRA @beautyisthefaceisee but you certainly don't seem to have very good listening skills

You are deliberately stirring up trouble on what was a respectful discussion and I am not remotely interested in your goading

You telling people that your training supercedes their opinion, is not respectful.

TRAs are not indicative of the rest of us though.

If you are telling women that they are not allowed to consider cis a slur, because it puts them into a subclass of their own sex...then you ARE a TRA.

I just find it pointless. I have a clear feminine name. I'm happy for people to assume I am female from my name.

When people meet me I am happy for them to assume I use she/her.

Even if someone did by some bizzare reason call me him I wouldn't be offended.

I'm clearly a woman, I'm a attractive 30 something year old feminine woman.

Writing shit at the bottom of my e-mail signature is not needed. I simply don't do it. Others in my company have, I don't do it in mine, I've never been questioned or asked to include it either.

I've also never been questioned on my sexuality/religion/race which is also forms part of my "identity" so the day someone demand I put a pronoun on my signature to identify me I'm also going to demand I'm able to write "Bisexual White Christian She/Her". Because if "identity" is that important I'm in for a penny in for a pound. 😂

I hope they bring this into my industry. Will use he him, luckily at the moment am inan Arabic country who don't care as long as you are good

What other personal characteristics will be asked to be declared in an email signature to show allyship - ethnicity, religion, disability?

Well this is a bit of a disingenuous comparison because you don't refer to people differently based on their ethnicity, religion, or disability.

I feel like it's most helpful to people who identify as non binary and want to use they / them pronouns, I can see that by everyone listing their pronouns it may make them feel more able to list theirs, equally I see the issue with people not wanting to reveal their pronouns (yet) feeling pushed into a corner.

It's an imperfect, over simplistic solution.

Tigofigo but if I speak to someone who is religious I’m not compelled to believe in their religion.

If someone ‘identifies as non-binary’ (I.e how most people realistically feel) they can crack on. But I’m not going to refer to them any differently - no one gets to dictate to me that I should do anything other than correctly sex individuals. Don’t talk to me about ‘being kind’ because there’s NOTHING kind about this ideology as far as women are concerned. So I say no.

Could you quote me where I said that?

@AlisonDonut Reported for calling me a TRA.

Strange that, as if you bother to read the thread you will see me having a pretty respectful discussion.

"not listening" doesn't mean the same as having a different opinion, its just that some posters are more arrogant than others.

taking you at your word though, @Clymene , the only point of 'conflict', more differeing opinions, between maddening and I was the use of the word cisgender.

I never said people had to like it or use it or that I supercede their opinion, as some rambling PP said. What I said was, it's in the current training. Because it is. So therefore someone using it in a workplace is not necessarily being offensive, are they? Surely how it's the word is used?

I find it far more offensive to be called a TRA and compared to nutters on twitter, but that word is trotted out like candy on MN to anyone who dares to slightly disagree with anones beliefs (despite the fact if anyone bothers to read back, I actually am on board with other posters opinions re trans a lot of the time).

What does that mean?

How can you identify with having body parts you do not have?

You know fine rightly what I mean. The wide eyed faux "but you cant change sex" is beyond boring.

No, I don't know what you mean.

I have literally no idea what the fuck they are identifying with.

And I don't believe you do either.

No, you're not interested, you think it's a load of nonsense, and your question isn't in good faith. WHich is fine. Just don't pretend otherwise.

Don't lump me inw ith you - I certainly don't think my identity is based on me having a vagina, as you clearly do!

Well you're half right. I do think it's a load of nonsense.

But I am genuinely interested to know what they believe they are identifying with.

I get to "lump you in with me" because the category of people that we noth belong to is a thing that actually exists. Female people. And yes, it is about having a vagina and other female body parts. It's not an identity. I couldn't care less about any identity you may believe you have, and I'm not claiming that we share one.

But I don't believe that people like Lia Thomas get to lump me or you or any female people in with them. They are claiming that woman is an identity that they have, which entitles them to access women's single sex spaces and compete in women's sporting categories. It's offensive and dangerous and harmful to women.

So damn right, I want to know exactly what Lia Thomas believes Lia is identifying with, and why Lia thinks it has anything to do with being a woman, or swimming, or the female swimmers who are being disadvantaged by Lia's identity.

You know fine rightly what I mean. The wide eyed faux "but you cant change sex" is beyond boring.

But the thing is, we (or at least I) genuinely don't know what it means. As far as I can tell, it means different things to different people and, deliberately or otherwise, those arguing for trans people will pick the meaning that best supports their current demand even if it contradicts or undermines a meaning on which a different demand is being justified.

Is a trans woman someone who believes they would have been happier if they were born female and possibly takes steps to modify their body closer to female, or someone who has a mental quality that means they ARE female? And if the latter, what is that quality and why is it more socially, physically and legally significant than body sex?

TWAW, at least as used by TRAs and the dominant trans pressure groups, is not a polite fiction with practical limitations but a statement of underlying reality that means no distinction between those who are women by sex and those who are women by mind can ever be valid.

It seems a logic somewhat unique to gender ideology that really wanting something you don't have (the body of the opposite sex) is considered to be interchangeable with actually having it.

So what is your identity based on @beautyisthefaceisee ?
you say vagina like it’s a bad thing?

If you’re not actually a woman surely ‘feeling like a woman’ is based on interpretations of stereotypes or assumptions about what some women might feel?

We don’t ‘feel’ the same like some kind of amorphous blob.

The things women share are based on growing up the same sex.

Well you do you...

I think many if not most people would be fine with using their chosen pronouns though as they don't see it a such a big deal to do so - hence still worth including them?

That's generally what TRAs do. Report people for not obeying the Borg.

You done good on that training, did Miss give you a pat on the head? Do you report back on how many women you reported on MN as a follow up?

And you were not being respectful to maddening when you told her that cis was 'the word'. After she said that she considered it a slur. Which it is.

So what is your identity based on @beautyisthefaceisee ?

I'd like to know this too

I didnt say that though, hun. I said its in official training. I didn't say it was OK to use , I explained why it is used.

Re the rest of your post, I cant be arsed. Well done on derailing what was a pretty good thread. Your input has been phenomenal.